Taylor Monahan developed an important link in the cryptocurrency space (think digital currency).
She is co-founder of MyEtherwallet - a free, open-source, client-side wallet that lets you easily and securely interact with the Ethereum network. Ethereum is a cryptocurrency which includes a programmable smart contract platform and MyEtherWallet gives you the ability to generate new wallets so you can store your Ethereum yourself, not on an exchange.
This show was geared specifically to help breadown the basics around the future of money. In the first half, Taylor walks us through the essentials behind cryptocurrency, ethereum, blockchains, wallets, and what comes along with it. The second half was open format discussing the utility of cryptocurrency, the explosion of trading, market potential, ICOs and more with Kevin Monahan the CEO of MyEther Wallet.
Links to places like MyEther Wallet and coinbase great locations for you to begin trading crypto currency will be linked in the show notes.
Brandon: Here we are, first show in LA. So happy we’ve made it. Studio set-up in this small space. Shout out to Ed. Thank very much Ed. And we’re here with Taylor Monahan – I probably butchered it, did I say it right?
Taylor: Yeah, you got it. You did it.
Brandon: Co-founder of MyEtherWallet, thank you so much for coming out today, how you doing?
Taylor: Thank you. So good. This is – it’s been really excellent and this is going to be a fun time at Saturday morning.
Brandon: Doesn’t get better than this.
Daniel: Yeah, a lot of good pre-talk for sure.
Brandon: Our pre-talk, but now we’re getting going. And on this episode everybody, we’re here to really get in depth on the idea, the theory, whatever you’ll call it of CryptoCurrency. Taylor herself works with MyEtherWallet. Ethereum is one certain type of CryptoCurrency. We’re going to go into detail that. Blum, take it away from here.
Daniel: We’re just going to start off with learning about CryptoCurrency. We’re going to do our best to assess what Blockchains are. The whole technology and how it works before we evolve into a little bit more about your company, your business, get into ICOs. And some of the more advance concepts before we really dive deep into your brain and our brains and what this means for government regulations and so we’re super excited and I think – what’s your first question Brandon?
Brandon: What is CryptoCurrency? Let’s start with the definition because if we’re going to butcher it --
Taylor: It’s the hardest part. Oh God. So CryptoCurrency and like Blockchain technologies are basically a new way to, I guess, store information and share that information. And then, you know, what Bitcoin does is it's this ledger. So you can basically have this very open, transparent record of who sent money to whom, at what time and therefore, you can determine like who has what amount of money.
So rather than like your bank account where you have this centralized service that’s keeping track of how much you have and your mom has. And your friend has and that rich guy has. These all happens on this public ledger and then everyone can then like see it and verify it and so, you know, it’s transparent, it opens up a world that has, you know, different govern structures, it opens up –
Daniel: How do you get verified?
Taylor: So at Bitcoin, you have the miners which are – they are the ones that sort of build this ledger or this Blockchain. So when you – like let’s say I want to send you a Bitcoin. I initiate the transaction which is basically like this string of code that goes out into this big decentralized internet world, right. And then that transaction goes into like a pool of all the transactions and then the miners select the transactions which are valid and like me – like right now, it’s like the miners are like, “We want the ones with the highest transactions fees, so that we can take more money.”
And then those get put into Blocks and then the Blocks become a chain and that sort of how it all gets built up. And so if you go back through every single transaction in every single block. That’s like the flow of money from person to person or account to account. That’s like from the beginning of time or the beginning of Bitcoin.
Daniel: So if I’m understanding this correctly, what’s happening is these miners, they’re putting all the transactions on a public ledger so that every single person can see this. And then they stay recorded in Blocks so that the blocks are never able to be touched. So if I send money to him, that gets recorded on there and the money then is forever stay there. So every person who has access to this ledger knows that we had a transaction?
Taylor: Right, exactly. And then, you know, like literally anyone can go and see. So you can go on Blockchain.info for Bitcoin and you know, or if you just go to the -- I think it’s probably the home page, you can see those transactions come through, you can see that, you know, XYZ random address send .5 Bitcoin to ABC address over here.
And so you know, if you – I mean, you could just like scroll down forever and see every single transaction from the beginning of the time. You can also do things like search and you know, you can look at your account to see your balance and your incoming and you outgoings. It’s just like you would a normal bank account. Like you can see that you went and spent, you know, $10 at 7-11. You can see that you spent, you know, .1 Bitcoin sent it to your buddy or whatever you did.
Daniel: So where did this – so to take this back a step, what created the spawn of this technology? Like why did someone create the system. I'll bring a name Satoshi, I don’t know if I’m saying that right. What berth this technology? Was there a problem that was being solved or and why did it come a bound, where?
Taylor: I mean, I think that the like original sort of ideas behind a digital currency is probably like -- I don’t know, probably the 70s or 80s. And I know like Nick Szabo and Hal Finney all of those guys are really involved in it. And I think that there’s a number of problems that it can solve but, I think, that like the question like how did this happen? is most likely like really smart people more curious about something and came up with an idea. And now, you know, with Bitcoin and its popularity like that’s really kind of what makes it remarkable.
There’s been other, you know, sort of ideas and there’s been experiments but they’ve never sort of like delivered on the promises on the way that Bitcoin has and then, you know, once Bitcoin sort of existed and was used in like, “Oh hey, this works.” When you have that moment, then you sort of have this rapid expansion of technology surrounding it, which is where, you know, Ethereum comes from of Minar come from like all these different digital currencies sort of building off of this core ideas, which were actually like, you know, thought of, you know, 20-30 I don’t even know how many years ago. When computers where first existing who were like, “Oh.”
Brandon: It has to do with the “Internet” first being developed. This would be an idea to use on top of that platform.
Taylor: Right, exactly.
Brandon: A big thing that get turned around is the term decentralization and, you know, what money and what currency actually is. It’s built under a centralized – it’s a government or centralized rules. What does Bitcoin or all these CryptoCurrencies -- how do they decentralize and what is that actually mean for people to make transactions and for example with even the Blockchain that, you know, now everything is accountable for, you know, so how are my normal everyday transactions with, you know, regular US dollars at a gas station or grocery, are those – can a CryptoCurrency like account for everything and now it’s a record? And is that a better thing or is that not a better thing?
Taylor: Yeah, so I mean, the core sort of like, I guess the best thing about decentralization is that you don’t have like the single solitary party or like collection of parties with the power to like corrupt – with the power to like CO, with the power to do whatever. So you know, when we look at your traditional banking system –
Daniel: Like a bank? Okay.
Taylor: Yeah, Is like – you know, in developing countries, the governments are very, you know, closely tied to like the banks or the bank maybe the government or vice versa, so you know, when you look at things like that, your money is being held by this one sort of like “Person”. And if they decide that they want to take your money, there’s not a lot that you can do. Especially in like developing countries. When you talk about decentralization, you’re talking about just basically removing that centralized party, that bank, that government whatever, removing it completely from the picture. And so the way that we do that with digital currencies and Blockchain is that you give every single person the ability to verify the transactions –
Daniel: What do you mean by give every single person the ability to verify the transaction?
Taylor: So hypothetically, you could go buy like a miner like a machine that mines, right. And you could like go and like literally build -- a help build the Blockchain like help decide what transactions are going to be included and which ones aren’t and as a normal person you can, you know, go and look at the blocks sort of look at the transactions using – it’s called like a full node. It’s basically the same stuff that you see on Blockchain.info or EtherScan is – that’s the Blockchain like that’s you’re looking at the actual transactions.
So you can go and verify like, “Okay, this person actually did send this or they didn’t send this.” Or whatever happened you can co-see that very – like through any number of tools and you can’t do that with the bank, like you can’t – I can’t just go pull up a website and see how much you sent from like Chase to Bank of America or you know, you to your mom or you to 7-11 or whatever.
Daniel: So basically the biggest discrepancy is public versus private? Am I understanding that properly. Like one is – like what I said before – like you said where everyone has access and then one is these people control access. Can you define the nodes – the node a little bit more?
Taylor: The way of the decentralization works in this is that each – is that you have a distributed system of nodes. And then these are usually like sometimes they’re miners so the people that are creating the blocks, but sometimes, like my MyEtherWallet, we have like three nodes. And so we’re the ones listening for people sending transactions and like when I talked about the transaction pool like literally I imagine like a huge pool full of like people like being like being like I want to send $3 to my buddy and throw it in the pool.
And then instead of that pool being like the pool that is JP Morgan, Chase or like the government or whatever. That pool is like this thing that exist on the internet and then anyone like MyEtherWallet, we put transactions into that but we also are listening to it. And so we’re like, “We’re taking records of like which transaction is here, which transaction is here.” And then the miners are the ones that pick up those transactions and put them in blocks and then the Blockchain that gets built up from there that’s like this infallible thing that’s like the record and the history and the everything.
Daniel: So they confirm – so everyone confirms every transaction.
Daniel: So everyone of those nodes says, “This is a good transactions. It’s good to go.” And then once that out and it puts it into the blocks and the blocks will say, “All right, this is forever here, this transaction happened, it exist." Everyone knows it exists. That person gets the money or that person get the CryptoCurrency and we’re good to go from here now. That person can trade the money if they want to or this person can and every single time that happens they throw into the pool so everyone can look at the pool and decide that this is good transaction.
I don’t know if you have a question but I want to know what happens if someone tries to fake that transaction or like I guess, what is done to secure this?
Taylor: So yeah, that’s like the big sort of magic and why it’s really good that really, really smart people are building these things because—
Daniel: I don’t understand the encryption. That stuff at all.
Taylor: CryptoCurrency is really new and so the way that it works is like this raw underlying technology is called like there’s a elliptical curve cryptography and this is where the crypto comes from is like the cryptography part of it. This technology, this like, this public key and private key technology it basically secures everything, like everything in the world. like it’s how your HTTPS website works, it’s how the NSA keep its secret safe, it’s like everything.
Brandon: I’ve been thinking of really cool analogy. Heard from Neil deGrasse Tyson is like in Edward Snowden did an interview is that because all of our messages are encrypted and we sent anything out into outer space and if alien were to pick it up they would have to have our tools of encryption in order to figure out what are messages are. So you know, they had the technology for cryptography we would never to decode any messages that came back our way, so we’d never understand anything anyway. So all this static noise that we hear could be something, it couldn’t be something. We wouldn’t know.
Taylor: That’s so deep.
Daniel: So alien encryption is the next level.
Taylor: Next level.
Brandon: Translation, send them a key so they can understand it.
Taylor: This is like one of my favorite things about sort of CryptoCurrency and so you learn all these things about that are like way bigger than it. It’s not this little like internet fad that some people kind of see it as. It’s like – it’s just raw we’re not hiding everything from you. So the way that this works is that you have a private key and you have a public key. And the private key derives the public key. So basically you take the private key and you do a bunch of like math to it and you have the public key and this is your address.
So this is where you tell people to send your Bitcoin or ETH or your whatever. You can’t go backwards like you can’t with only your public key you can turn it into a private key. So if you think of it as like the public key as your username and the private key is your password like they are connected but it’s a one way street, okay. What makes it really remarkable, anyone can like prove or like understand that this public key – you can verify that the person had the private key, so you can sign a message or whatever.
You can very easily be like, “Okay, this person has this password, right.” So when you sign in your email, if you send me an email, like I know that you have your password, right. Like you couldn’t have sent me an email without your password. The same thing applies to this public key, private key situation. You can verify very easily that somebody indeed owns this account. Indeed has access to the private key that produces this public key but they can’t get the private key themselves and so you have this very interesting way of being able to have a transparent and open and decentralized mechanism that's also [inaudible 00:15:20] secure, which is like the most important thing when we’re talking about billions of dollars.
Brandon: And I think with this technology it’s the idea that we can move money much more readily at much faster speeds than it happens now. I think typical banking institutions takes like five days or two to five days to get a wire across something. Something with like Ethereum take eight seconds.
Taylor: I mean, there’s a variety of factors, but Ethereum so the block times are about 15 seconds. So every single 15 seconds, a block with like 20 transactions-ish is like created. It’s like, “Okay, the block is here and then the next one is here, the next one is here.” In Bitcoin it’s every 10 minutes, so every 10 minutes there’s a block that’s like stuff full of transactions that’s going into the Blockchain. So have [inaudible 00:16:08], I mean, you can sign there right now and it will be it’s just – like in Bitcoin it’ll be 10 minutes until it’s included in the Blockchain and then for sort of like the security sake if you’re dealing with a lot of money, you want to wait for they call them confirmations.
You want to wait. So if you have one block is ten minutes, you want to wait for two blocks or three blocks. It’s just 10,20,30 minutes. But that’s like for security reasons. like hypothetically, you know, in Ethereum you sent your transaction it’s done it’s over. The person has access to these funds in 15 seconds.
Brandon: And now, is it – it’s supposedly not as secure as a typical bank institution. It’s much more faster and much more accountable but the threat of security is much more – is much higher, especially not putting your funds in let’s say the ledger wallet or ether wallet because leaving on the web it can just get picked off or hacked by any and everywhere.
Taylor: right, so there’s two different things that we should talk about. There is like the security of the network itself and like the knowledge or like the assumption or whatever you want to call it that you couldn’t say walk into the room and be like, I’m going to take everyone’s money right now because the underlying technology is insecure or is broken or something. Like that would be bad if you could – if you could literally be like, “Okay, I’m going to write some code and just steal everything from the Blockchain.” That said, the security issues lay at sort of the front end user level because it’s so new and it’s so conceptually different than what we typically deal with. You know, that private key is like your life blood.
Like it’s not a password that like, “Okay, you can go reset it or, you know, you can turn on two factor or whatever. it’s like if I get your private key then I have your private key. The underlying technology is secure. Like the protocol level stuff that you don’t even think about in the technologies that we use today, that secure. The issue is that we’re like what? Seven years into this. Ethereum is less than two years old, so the security of users accounts – the security of protecting users from themselves and the mistakes that they make. The production of – like say insurance, so one thing is like we don’t have – if you lose that private key and you lose your funds. The things that you don’t have are like a bank to refund you.
Daniel: It’s gone.
Taylor: It’s gone. Yeah. If your private key is gone, like it is gone. There is nothing –
Daniel: What’s being built? Is there stuff being built to secure that?
Brandon: We have a few friends who have lost some cash.
Taylor: It’s gone. It’s just gone and to basis like – this is like super mind boggling and this is – this is what
Daniel: Are they working to fix that? Like is that something that’s being developed?
Taylor: Oh yeah. So this is like the services. So remember like when you had your really old crappy like phone? like your Nokia brand.
Daniel: The one with the snake on it?
Taylor: Yeah, okay. Like it worked but not really and then you had like the phones like the first Blackberry that had like this slightly bigger screen and then you could like hypothetically like “Browse the internet with them.” It’s like it takes time to develop the things that at the end of the day we have your fancy iPhone 7, you know, with your bling-bling case and your whatever entire life on it.
That’s the process that we’re going through right now. Right now we’re like at like pager level, you know what I mean like we’re really are – we’re building – we are like building the ability to do this and give it a few years and you know, you’ll have some, you know, comparative Apple building iPhone.
Daniel: No, that’s a great analogy like that’s where we’re at in the stage of the development. The biggest concern people probably listening to this are going to think is they’re going to say, “Okay, well yeah, but a phone is a small product that I call people on whereas this is my money that I’m transacting with people.”
Brandon: But that’s why beeper analogy was great because all you see are the beeper is like “Oh, someone is paging from this number." like "It could be someone sending me money from this – I don’t know what this address is like.” how long are those things like a 50 numbers and numerals? “Who is this, I don’t know what it is.” But that is a great stage, “Okay, this is what actually going on.” Again someone who has knows doesn’t even know what they are doing still like me. I can get that analogy.
Brandon: My next question was, this coin tickers, I’m seeing the value of a lot of these coins where there – wide range of the coins that I personally invested in. But, you know, I’m basing them off US dollars and if I’m trying to base those of US dollars and you know, Ethereum coin or Bitcoin are trying to take the place but they are suppose to have more, again, accountability for stuff.
Like so if the money that we have now a days is a called Fiat currency and that there’s nothing actually backing it up or behind it, is CryptoCurrency looking to fill the void of that or, you know, is eventually going to be like, “Oh, US dollars are going to based off with the price of Ethereum is or a price of a Bitcoin is?
Taylor: Right, so I mean that’s we’re getting to like the fundamentals sort of like essential question like what is value and like why would you use someday. I mean the thing is, is that money in general no longer like backed by gold like banks don’t have like gold reserves. They don’t, you know, the Fed doesn’t have gold reserves like nobody – it’s all sort of like this fake hypothetical situation and it’s really you can think of most of like the global like economy or the global world.
It mostly operates on like a similar sort of "ledger."
Brandon: A huge base of Thrust.
Taylor: And so you have like this ledger of like, “Okay, X country owes X country 10 Bazzilion dollars.” You know what I mean, and then that country can go spend that money and they can, you know, have credit and spend it and then come back and be like, “Oops, we can’t repay you.” And you know, this like somehow this whole mechanism works but it doesn’t really work that well. Like there are ton of problems with that.
So you know, to get back to like where does CryptoCurrency play a part – the way that the global sort of money – the way it exist right now, it’s been evolved and it’s been corrupted and it’s been, you know, things have been built on things have on things and at the end of the day as a user like as a consumer you really have don’t like that much power and you really don’t have like the ability to truly like when you’re sending someone money.
You’re not sending them money. You’re not giving them like a dollar bill anymore. You’re basically initiating a transaction to your bank who initiates it to its bank and on and on and on. So one of the ways that you know, like the value of CryptoCurrency is like eliminate that top high level like weird money isn’t really money and you’re not really sending it and it’s all like based on numbers that somebody comes up with somewhere. Like just get rid of all that and like get back to the basics. Where I have something of value, I can send it to you, now you have something of value.
Brandon: I mean overtime, whatever we’ve just define as value has changed. I mean, it was sea shells at one point and then it was tulips and then it was silver, gold or any other shiny metal element. For some reason humans are fascinated by shiny metal. And we determine that’s value especially – for example something like jewelry or diamonds.
And just like this thing doesn’t actually don’t cause that much money and it cost no money to make or find and they are everywhere but we’re going to say it cost as much.
Taylor: Right, that’s value. That’s how value is created like I mean, one of the easiest way to make something valuable is to like limit its availability.
Brandon: Yes, so that’s the big thing you see with diamonds that they will find all these diamonds. They store them in one central location. Hide them away from everybody. [inaudible 00:24:38] only a little bit out for the rest of the world to purchase and buy, and we can jack up the prices because that’s how you determine love as well on our planet.
Brandon: Welcome to earth. It seems like you say the overlying principles of, you know, getting CryptoCurrency for people just to determine what value is. It’s a much better way for people to get out whether you’re going to say poverty or to boost people up from a lower class into a middle class and something we’re talking about before is that we remove that level the third party for you to decide, you know, who gets to lend and who gets to exchange money.
Now you could have, you know, me lending money to a grandmother in India who is sitting there who might need money and it’s written on a Blockchain. It’s accounted for and it’s always there for me to use again. To her, to her to send me money for someone to send money to her. I think that’s one that’s being developed with WeTrust.
Taylor: That’s what I think they’re working on, yeah.
Brandon: There’s something on that and it’s, again, another technology built – I think they’re build out of Ethereum, as well. That again is just another great source, so much more accountable way to exchange money and to lend money for people because you see this with – in developing countries. Especially like International Monetary Fund, the IMF and you know, the US government or another people who manage or run the IMF.
We are going to send you this trillion dollars and it’s going to go to the government of that country they are going to get to decide where that money get stuff in their pocket or gets to build the infrastructure. So when this Blockchain or when this CryptoCurrenc ies go off, the money – off there we go, off in [inaudible 00:26:21] I lost myself.
Taylor: So this is – I think, one of the most like accessible ideas about this is if you think about like charities. So right now, let’s say that you want to donate like $10 to a kid that’s living in a third world country who needs that $10. The stuffs that happen in order to – for you to send that $10 is something like this.
You initiate a transaction from your bank account to the bank account of the – I don’t want to put like the Red Cross on blast here but like you know what I mean like a charity, right. And then they -- it goes from their bank account and you don’t really know. Like, I mean, you really don’t. Like what happens to your $10. So it can go to overhead, it could go to whatever and you know, at the end of the day a certain amount does go to that kid that needs that money but how much? Is it 1%, 10%, 15%.
Brandon: A lot of it is like under 10%. A lot of it does go to overhead and like managing and operating these charities.
Taylor: Right, and the other thing to keep in mind is when you send that money – so if you’re sending from your credit card say – the credit card company themselves gets like a 3% plus like 20 cents for that transaction. Now the Red Cross or whoever the charity is going to go spend that money. so there we’re going to have another fee, which is then going to go internationally and now we’re talking about international remittance fees which are way up.
Okay, so now that $10, you know, is without anything even if even just looking at the fees that has cost to send the money from one place to another you’ve already – you’ve already lost. Like you’ve already cut so much of it out. Digital currencies like imagine a world where if that person $10 it cost you no matter where in the world they are as long as they have an internet connection, it’s going to cost you like less than five cents to send however much money you want to them and that’s it. Like you know what I mean, that’s the whole sort of structure.
Brandon: Peer-to-peer so to speak.
Daniel: And the biggest thing about just speaking with charity is, when you give someone charity you don’t know that your money, you know, that they can legally take over 20%. Imagine if you can actually transact directly, forget a corrupt government, forget a person who might want to take out a percent like that. You know that that child is getting that currency to use it. It’s that’s the most impeccable thing about it to me.
Brandon: It is just internet connection? Let’s say, you know, we’re going to solve this problem right now all right. It’s not in the plan. We want to make sure that this child or any individual in a developing country wants to get, you know, funds with only a five cent fee on top of it. Is it just internet connection? Do we need to get them a certain wallet, they all need a Ether Wallet, a Ledger Wallet. How? What’s the next step besides them having internet connection?
Taylor: Yeah, well so they need a mechanism that allows them to, you know, safely have their private key and so that they could then go suspend it and receive and know whatever. So you know, it could be a ledger wallet like a hardware wallet. It could be like a piece of paper, it could be like a credit card. It could be like a physical card that has their information on it. Any number of things, you know, that’s when we talk about sort of where we are in the progress of these things. Those are the things that need to be built.
You know, at the end of the day like your credit card number and your account numbers, you don’t even think about them but they’re the same as sort of your private key, you know what I mean. So we need to find a way to, you know, enable people to really, really easily. And then Nick Johnson is actually -- he has these things called Ether cards. And they are quite literally like a physical card that’s like a credit card size thing that has your private key on it. And it has like a QR code with your address and it’s really like well designed and all those sort of things. And they are perfect for beginners because you can get one.
The private key is hidden, so you just like you can’t see it. You just scratch it off like when you want to spend that money or move that money. And that’s it. Like you don’t have to go like you can hypothetically -- I could have a card, send funds to that card. Give you that card. I wouldn’t have access to that that account and you would have access to that account once you scratch of the little scratcher. So that’s like one, you know, pretty clever way.
Daniel: What other technological advancements are coming around like what else is being built outside of it. I mean, you can tell us about your company, about MyEtherWallet and what problem that solves.
Taylor: So back to charities for like two seconds.
Daniel: Yeah, please.
Taylor: So if anyone is like super in to charities and that whole world -- there is -- Griff Green does Giveth.io and he is basically trying to like solve all of these charity problems like on Ethereum. And so they're building a ton of really cool products and they're building a community and they're doing really, really amazing things. So Giveth.io and then try to find their Slack because it's really, really awesome and active.
The technologies that are being built -- what MyEtherWallet does is that we give you an interface, like a user interface where you can click things to generate a wallet or send a transaction or anything you want like on the Ethereum Blockchain. The next step to this is making it easier and making it more accessible for everyone to use. So like we make it more accessible than out predecessor the Commandline, which what you know, that's what when Ethereum started. That's what you use like you would type things into a black box on your computer.
The next step is going to be -- okay how to we, you know, whether it's a card, whether it's a hardware wallet, how do we enable people to be super, super secure and keep their private key private. Keep that a secret. Without having to understand what a private key is. That's like -- that's the million dollar question.
Brandon: So besides the private key. There is different security things to protect your wallet. I think with my ledger wallet there's like a 24 word code and --
Taylor: I mean, they're all mechanisms to try to make it like easier for you to -- they're all solving different problems. So with the mnemonic it's really, really cool. So one, you have these 24 words which are readable and they're not random numbers and letters so they're easier to type. In theory, I guess you can memorize them. I don't -- I would not rely on my memory to remember 24 words but you know, that's one thing.
The other cool things is with your ledger, you actually have that one phrase -- actually like creates multiple -- well doesn't create but it drives multiple accounts. So on your ledger you have like a bunch of different addresses that you have hypothetically send to. And so that feature basically enables you to have -- only remember one thing or save one thing but have access to multiple addresses which is good.
Brandon: I think we've done a descent job of getting people into explaining what is -- what is everything we're talking about right now. What is the topic or subject.
Taylor: I think we probably lost a few.
Daniel: Yeah, either way, I mean, it's a somewhat difficult topic to digest.
Taylor: It really is.
Daniel: But I think that helping people get out there and understand that this is something at least in all of our eyes that is going to change the way that we view money. And so whether they understand it now or whether they at least get some like idea that it's out there is super important. And that's why we wanted to have this conversation with you because we want to be able to bring that to people. And so yeah, we try to -- we break it down for them a little bit and now, you know.
Brandon: Where would you send someone who you know, is as raw as it come to this idea and these principles. Where would you send them to, to study and learn whether it's articles to read or you know, to go invest some of their own fake cash into these cash.
Taylor: If you're in the US, it's Coinbase. It's definitely the easiest way to sort of get started. So basically with Coinbase they enable you to -- I don't know how much it is right now, is it like $300? Anyone know?
Brandon: ETH check.
Daniel: ETH is at 322 last time we looked, it's all time high today.
Taylor: So with Coinbase you can probably buy about one ETH with your debit or credit card. It depends on a whole variety of factors but basically you go on Coinbase, you create an account. This is not -- you're not creating like an Ethereum account, you're creating like a regular user account. So you're going to give them your name, your email address, you're going to create a password, all that normal stuff.
And then you can use your credit card or your debit card or a bank transfer to buy a little bit of ETH. If you do -- if you want to buy like a lot of ETH or Bitcoin or whatever. You have to do like a -- you have to --
Brandon: There's different verifications where you have to give social security number.
Taylor: It's all the regulations.
Brandon: Oh I know, I pushed my limits on Coinbase because it's my first time. I just put 5k right away. They're like, "No, you can't spend anymore yet. You got to way. You got to wait."
Taylor: So read the limits beforehand. If you want to get your hands on some Bitcoin or some ETH and you're in the US. The easiest way is Coinbase and basically what you're going to do is you're going to go to Coinbase.com. You're going to create an account and then they allow you -- it's either $300 or $500 but they allow you to buy like a small amount with your regular debit card or your credit card, which is really, really nice because you don't have to like do the whole bank wire thing.
And it's -- it happens pretty quickly and stuff like that. So this enables you to then have an account with some ETH in it and then they have a phone app. They have all these sort of things. Then you can start diving deeper into like the underlying technology and the different things that you can do with them. For example with ETH what's really popular is, all the token sales that are going on right now and all the different projects that are booming. So with Coinbase you can basically think of it as like the gateway. They allow you from US dollar into Bitcoin or into Ether.
Once you are there, if you want to expand your reach into the ecosystem and start playing with these tokens that's where MyEtherWallet comes in. And so there's -- I'll give you guys a link but there's like a really helpful kind of getting started guide for starting at Coinbase and getting it into your MyEtherWallet. The primary difference is with Coinbase you have a username and password. They are sort of like they are not really a bank but they're in charge of protecting like your keys. So you don't have to see your keys.
And if you want to stay on Coinbase for, you know, they're reputable. If you want to keep your funds there, that's probably a good choice if you're just getting started because you don't have to worry about your private keys and all that. Once you start like experimenting and getting into this. MyEtherWallet, you can create a wallet, you can send ETH, you can send tokens, you can -- everything you can do. For that, you just want to start slow. Like that's -- my advice is like do not, do not take your life saving throw it into Coinbase, okay, and then --
Brandon: Too late.
Daniel: Do not take all the money that you have well except if it's going to go up, you know, 400% a month but --
Taylor: And then, you know, especially the one that I deal with all day. Is like not -- the life choices people make about their savings but the, "Hey, I just sent like, you know, and ETH to my wallet, where is it? What do I do now?" Figure that out before and the first transaction that you make have to be like a dollar. So like .01 ETH, not 1 ETH or 10 ETH or a thousand ETH. Like start slow. Ease yourself into these, please.
Because it is a new technology, you know, we make it really easy in theory but it's new, you know, like the words that we use are -- it's just different. That's my best advice is figure out an amount of money that you're willing to lose and then put it in Coinbase and then just play with it, you know what I mean. I think one of the worst things that people do is -- I mean, not the worst but -- if you have this expectation that you're just going to put all your money into this thing and everything is going to be happy and you just sort of dive in and move quickly.
Like things can go really wrong and there's no insurance, there's no reversing transactions like it's just -- if you send that to the wrong address, it lives in the wrong address now.
Daniel: This is a purely speculatory market at this point or a lot of people have money in for the actual technology?
Taylor: Probably a healthy mixture of both, I mean, the speculative value this is through the roof right now which is exciting because it's $300 like that's amazing like that's super cool but you know, I mean, if you look at the graph it's pretty bubbly right now. The value of Ethereum is not necessarily the same as like the value of Bitcoin. Where Bitcoin is seen as digital gold where it's a store value. Where Bitcoin almost exist so that you can put your money into Bitcoin and then take it out later and it will be more money. With Ethereum you have a lot of different applications.
So with Ethereum technically Ethereum it's the fuel that run these essentialize applications like that's why it was built and that's what the future will be and that's sort of like what you can do right now. These tokens are actually strings of code that run on the Ethereum Blockchain. And those tokens in themselves have value.
So when we talk about WeTrust or we talk about Aragon or we talk about anyone that has this token Ethereum is the fuel that it runs on. The token has this additional value depending on what they're building. You know, so Golem is building a like super computer that will basically like create a decentralized network that you can like render things with. So Golem is basically -- okay, so this is how this all works.
Daniel: So these are all other coins.
Taylor: So these ones are tokens built on Ethereum. This is why I say what gives Ethereum value, is these tokens at the moment. Ethereum in itself -- there's some really crazy things and cool things but right now --
Brandon: Real quick, real quick. When you say token, is that like an Ethereum coin?
Taylor: Uh-huh. So like the GNT Golem, that token is built on Ethereum and it runs on Ethereum. When you send that token you're spending ETH to send it. Like a .001 ETH to send that token from one place to the other. So Ethereum the underlying entire thing that everyone is freaking out about and is now $300 is actually the fuel the run at the applications on top of it and the tokens are one application.
Daniel: I just had like a big [inaudible 00:42:52] on myself like so, so Bitcoin is a CryptoCurrency and Ethereum a platform in which you can use CryptoCurrencies on? Somewhat good explanation.
Taylor: Yeah, sort of -- I mean, yeah the difference -- the primary difference between Ethereum and Bitcoin is like Bitcoin, the goals of the people developing it and growing it and building things on it are purely -- not purely -- but mostly surrounding like currency and store value and being like this digital gold. Ethereum is the whole like premise of it, is that it's still incomplete which means that the Blockchain itself can have and execute code. So with Bitcoin I say, "I want to send you one Bitcoin." I send you one Bitcoin end of the day.
With Ethereum you can write whatever contract you want, they are called Smart Contracts. You're going to write whatever code you want or have someone else write it for you and I can say, I want to send you 10 ETH but only if I haven't send you 10 ETH today. So I want to send you 10 ETH everyday but no more than 10 ETH or I want to send 10 ETH like I want to have a max limit of the amount that I can send today or I want to only send if both me and Kevin both approve that this money should move.
Daniel: So there's rules to them like function. It's like in math where there's functions where you can have different set of rules that represent. So it's like a much more, I guess, advance version of Bitcoin.
Daniel: Okay, cool. So Smart Contracts, can you give us a quick rundown on what those are because I know you can keep that as brief as possible if they're complex but I've heard a lot about those.
Taylor: Yeah, I mean, this conversation kind of jumps all over the place but yeah. The Ethereum Blockchain can execute the Smart Contracts. The Smart Contracts are whatever you want them to be, so just like with any programming language or any code that you write. Really smart people write them and then they do things. And they hopefully do what the person intended. Ethereum, you know, does that so, you know, when we talk about only send this ETH if both people approved.
That's a Smart Contract that exist right now called MultiChain and so -- but then there's other things so like these token sales right. Token or idea or whatever that's not speculative that's actually sort of valuable is called STORJ and STORJ basically you have this token the STORJ token.
Brandon: That's a STORJ one right.
Taylor: And the -- you can basically store your files totally encrypted in like in little pieces on anyone who -- anyone's computer who’s like accepting STORJ. Right now you have Dropbox or Amazon or Box.net or whatever, right. You have these places that you store your files so that you don't have to store them on your computer. So you have either a backup or because you don't have any room on your computer.
All right, so that's another example of a centralized location that you're storing your files, your Dropbox. With STORJ, it creates and it incentivizes this network of people who want to make money and have free space on their computers. So if I -- let's say I have like a fat computer --
Daniel: Wow, that's sick.
Taylor: Yeah, and I just like, I'm like, "Hey, yeah, all that random people source stuff on this, I'm not using it and so basically whatever space I'm using I get paid for by the people that are storing the files on my system. And so this is happening in like a huge decentralized network, right, and it's really, really, cheap. Like we're not talking like you're going to pay me $5 to put on my computer.
It's all this token that's not on Ethereum, you know, automatically just sort of doing it. You're like, "I want to store 50 giga bites." Okay, they're going to do the math. The token itself has this much value, you're going to send the tokens and you know, I think on our site I was just looking at it. It's like less than five cents for like a giga bite.
Daniel: So this is basically taking the exact same technology-- the Blockchain but using it for other applications and like I think of this -- I'm trying to liken this to something in the real world. There's a parking app, I think. This seems exactly like this parking app.
The parking app is like an Uber for parking or people have parking spaces in front of their house and you want to drive around and other people can share your parking space. I guess this just records the parking space. The key is this records that you use this parking space and in the major location or this records at your storage is in a safe location.
Taylor: Yeah, so basically it's like, you know, we're like the way that I'm going to explain it, we're imagining that like I am a person and I send you a file and you have the file just like with the parking space. I have a car and you're like this singular thing. In reality it's this huge like you know, all the people with all their files and then all of the nodes that are accepting the storage of these files and then it all happens like transparently and it can be verified with this exchange of tokens. So like, you know, you can say that, you know, I want to store one giga gig or two gigs or five gigs of data.
I'm not going to send you the five gigs of data it's just going to like the really smart people that are building these things have built this decentralized system where it's going to like take the pieces of all my things and encrypt them. And like put them out into the STORJ and then I'm going to pay the tokens and the tokens are automatically without a middle man. There's no middle man, you're not going to pay the app like the app itself who then whatever the bank and the government like it's going to go from me to the person who has my file.
Brandon: [inaudible 00:49:14] in Ethereum, No?
Taylor: Yeah, and it's all built on Ethereum.
Daniel: And you'll get it back whenever you want?
Taylor: Right, and then it all trickles back. And so like basically it's this, you know, it's easier to understand it when you're like here's the person, here's person, here's the file. But when you look at it in this really, really large widespread distributed way. It's like there is the value. Because if it was just one person one file, you'd be like well just give them a dollar like there's no problem.
But I mean imagine that every time you uploaded a file to like your Dropbox. It was actually, you know, going through this system and that the person who had that space on their computer that was hosting that file for you for the moment, you know, automatically got, you know, .0001 cent for your word document, right. And then this is happening like with everything, like everywhere.
Daniel: This feel so efficient too. That means like they're utilizing the space that's out there properly instead of tons of additional unused space that people are paying money for.
Taylor: Exactly, like why do you need Dropbox to have like an entire state full of servers when we all have computers, we all have old computers, we all have computers that have a bunch of space. Like my dad every single time buys like the best Macbook pro. Okay, and you know what's on his Macbook pro is like word documents like do you know what I mean. So it's like -- one, there is someone out there that has limited space that's going to find his extra space valuable and then he can be rewarded for using that space.
Brandon: I think the part where I'm a little confused and I think others might get confused on, is how does the token itself of STORJ get value? Like where -- where is the value. I see the service it is providing but how is, you know, like I've seen I'm just putting it towards like a ticker or like STORJ is now a dollar seven -- dollar and seven cents.
Taylor: That's a good question, why does it go up.
Kevin: You know you buy the quarters like well it's the same way like parking [inaudible 00:51:19] going to have $2 an hour and it use to be like 25 cents an hour. It's like--
Daniel: Scarcity? Based on scarcity?
Taylor: Yeah, but they have tracing on their site, so how do you [inaudible 00:51:30] value.
Kevin: Because it's going to be a limited. It's still limited supply.
Taylor: Is it based on US dollars?
Daniel: Well I think that one of the things we're talking like when we're taking break is -- do you two -- so like for example -- in the YouTube example if they built a YouTube platform on top of Ethereum where they distribute it -- where they charge you a Coinbase on what video you are watching.
if you're watching let's say “Our Home Video”, it's going to be absurdly cheap .001 to of a cent to watch a video but if you're watching something that's already up to a 150,000 views maybe it's incremental where at a 150,000 views maybe it's supported by a beer company that has better film so you're going to get charged a tenth of a cent or an actual whole cent because of the quality of the video so may--
Daniel: Maybe based on the storage of the vehicle storage or on the size of it.
Taylor: So, I mean, that's the all of these sort of ideas, you know, for all of these different things like what you're talking about right now but also everything single token that's out there right now and every single project and development is all based around sort of like this core idea that something that already not always but something that already exist could be more efficient could be cheaper could utilize resources differently, could be aided by like decentralization or aided by transparency.
So what the charity want transparency is a huge benefit but with like the STORJ one or you know, building a platform for content developers like YouTube. Where the content developers, so the people that are creating these films and putting them on YouTube are rewarded based on their viewership or their like I don't know.
Daniel: Take proper economic value like in people aren't being paid for content that they are giving out -- they should be.
Brandon: That's the problem right now. Especially with streaming.
Taylor: That's the problem.
Daniel: We're not actually capitalism.
Brandon: Spotify, you’ll notice a -- calculate what a stream cost.
Taylor: Right, so like you guys don't get. Like your users don't pay for this feed that they're listening to right now.
Brandon: No, it's an RSS and--
Taylor: Do you guys pay for it?
Daniel: Yes, so we pay monthly fees for different things.
Daniel: So yeah, you're right. Imagine if our users were paying a hundredth of cent, you know, or if there's a really great guest that they really enjoyed. That's a more rare guest or someone who's A-list then they would pay more money to see the show based on the quality. You know what I mean, maybe ratings and reviews come back and "Wow this show is hot. It's Incredible. People love Ethereum. They want to know everything about it. They love Taylor.” And so what happens is the price increases, I don't know, that's a possibility. That's what I dream in my mind.
Brandon: Well that's people do with like Patreon or different.
Taylor: That's what I'm going to say do you guys have a Patreon or no.
Taylor: Okay, so Patreon is such a good platform that could be so much better if it was on Ethereum. Okay so you're ready for this? Patreon is a centralized service where podcasters or like content creators set up an account -- you guys, I'm surprised that you don't have one because you then like your users can pay you, they can reward you for providing them with entertainment with good value or good information or whatever, right.
Daniel: Go on, I'm interested.
Taylor: So you set-up. So basically you go on Patreon and you guys set-up this account and usually you'll set-up thing like where if they donate like $5 that you'll send them stickers and if it's $20 and there's like repeating ones where you can do it every month or whatever. So that's all great. Your viewers can reward you for creating good content. Okay, you guys get paid for the hard work you're doing. The time the energy that takes to produce something like this.
The problem is the Patreon person in the middle who built this platform and keeps like 1/3 of everything. So if this person sends you $10 because they loved your content. Patreon gets a few dollars which is cool because like they built it and they should be rewarded but at the same time like – It’s like it would be better if someone run into you on the street and handed you a $10 bill.
Daniel: I mean, I think we’re getting into the practical uses of what this technology like what its potential is and the future that it potentially holds.
Brandon: No, I think it’s a huge problem that governments and just laws societies have in the world because technology is a thing that we created to make our lives easier. Whether it’s to provide less time, finding out where food for agriculture. [inaudible 00:56:16] we develop these different tools and how make food readily available. Now we have more time to go discover the sciences, politics and the art and you see this the growth of the civilization.
And now we’re having a huge problem with that because, you know, all these different jobs which are blue collar jobs just don’t exist anymore and where are people going to spend all their time now if we don’t have to worry about working and if we can, you know, provide with these different currencies especially like Ethereum that we can give people or people can pay people for different service whether it’s creating content or making things much more easier to pay someone or reward somebody for solid service or transaction. It makes a world a much better place.
Daniel: As the robots come in and take over the jobs then people will get in to creating in doing their fundings and look we have [inaudible 00:57:02] to create its own thing in which you can get paid for the things you enjoy doing so it’s a great solvent.
Taylor: Yeah, I mean, it enables you – like this is sort of a bigger it ties in close like with the whole sharing economy. So like the Uber and the, you know, those sorts of things. It just takes it one step further. So you know, while Uber enables you to have this sort of sharing economy where you don’t have like a taxi system. You have instead anyone can be a taxi. You can take it one step further and be like anyone can be a taxi and also Uber is not going to sitting in middle collecting the money or enabling people be a driver, not be a driver, whatever, do you know what I mean?
So you know, how will that work is that Warm City. So if you google it that’s another theory I’m talking where they are trying – they are building a whole community and platform and doing some awesome stuff to be like a decentralized Uber. Like that’s really mind boggling to me but it’s like doable and people are doing it.
Brandon: It’s the accountability and you see this with, you know, governments or even like a organizations like unions. You know, that they are there to protect the consumer and I think that’s what a lot of people are worried about especially when you are saying, you know, a decentralized Uber, you know, still we to think Uber. Okay, there’s overhead, there’s that centralization that people going to say, “Okay if I do want a refund –“
for example my Uber driver I got back in Florida and he like, “Where are you going?”, “What do you mean, you’re asking where I’m going? You should know where I’m going.”, “Well maybe I’m not going to take you anywhere.” Like listen, this is not what I just signed for. I don’t take a cab for these reasons and you’re doing this. But now, you know, I could call Uber up and say this guy needs – get rid of this guy, I want my money back and they can still email me back and take care of that. Now if it’s completely decentralized, especially of service such as, you know, Uber driving or ride sharing. Where is the overhead going to come from?
Taylor: So there’s a couple like different things. One, you know, Uber already has like sort of a rating system in a way that sort of like classify or tell if drivers are good or not. So they – I think they force you after every ride to rate both the drivers and the riders. So that system – you actually don’t need like Uber to be sitting in the middle for like you really don’t like if I create an application where anyone can rate anyone and it displays that information, you know, you don’t really need like a centralized party. The advantage having, you know, an Uber is for regulatory things so for like lobbying the government to allow this to happen.
Refunds as you said, some of the, you know, there’s been some incidences which are not like, “Oh my driver was an idiot.” But, you know, that Uber -- you know, try to either resolve or make sure both sides are happy or say okay even though this guy has like good reviews like that’s – it’s game over like he really screwed up like done like you can’t be a driver anymore. So all of all those things are good but, you know, none of them are sort of unsolvable.
If you have a community of people and you have the technology to build it. It’s just a matter of building it and you know, addressing those funds especially before they arise and certainly as they arise which Uber has been doing too.
Daniel: I think my friend last night was saying that there was a Autotrader one that was building like an Uber like a Blockchain for Uber. I don’t know if that’s real or not but --
Taylor: Yes, that’s Swarm City. It used to be called or it’s used to be like Arcade City and it was a little bit there is like drama that I won’t go into it that but Swarm City like they also have a Slack. They are super, super awesome. Really nice people and they are really – they are trying to build this. Like I can’t say whether or not they’ll be successful in building it but like it’s – this is sort of the potential like it’s not – these aren’t easy problems to solve.
Daniel: It’s a great unknown right now but there’s a lot of huge potential options.
Taylor: There’s a ton of unknowns and there is, you know, it’s crazy but what I will say is that, if you want the future to look like this, which I do like I want the future to not have Uber but to have anyone have the ability to give anyone rides. I want to be able to like my access computer space I want to get paid for my excess computer space.
Daniel: Yeah, rightfully so.
Taylor: You know --
Brandon: Or optimize everything.
Taylor: Even if you don’t like – even if you don’t like buy ETH or Bitcoin or these tokens. You can still be really involved in the communities. So like there’s this – there’s Slack for pretty much every project out there. They have website, there’s Reddit, there is Twitter. Like just hang out for a little bit and see what people are building because regardless of whether or not like X project is successful or not. It’s going to shape the future in a much like larger scale.
Daniel: So one of the ways that I – one of the questions I have to raise is arises when we’re talking about going back to Uber. Going back to Swarm – it was Swarm?
Daniel: You look at – let’s say that that does get integrated, I think Uber’s biggest problem was $700 million loss last quarter or last year. Is that – it’s the cost. So imagine if that cost is completely – let’s say you reduce that in half or and this technology runs of the Blockchain you have all that additional money. That additional money gets put back into the economy somewhere. It’s going back disposable income whatever. It has – the value of this to me is so much deeper from an economic standpoint because of all the additional money that we can have in our pockets to do – I don’t know what the hell we’re going to do with it, but we’re going to have an additional money in our pockets.
Taylor: Yeah, so I mean, one thing is like okay so let’s say that that this totally succeeds and now there are sort of like these extra pile of money that we spent on whatever Uber spend it on, right. That is no longer needed and therefore is somewhere in our economy. One thing that ends up happening is that, you know, you may be willing to spend a little bit more on a ride, right. So you can now reward the drivers for an actual like the actual amount that they should be earning for driving you around.
Because, you know, they are humans too and you’re all in this together. You’re all on this like world together. So being able to like directly reward someone for the work that they do or you know, when we talk about the refund situation or how do you deal with problems or how do you, you know, the structures that do have a reason for existing. That’s like where some of that money can go to. Is like a decentralized pool of money for, you know, situations that needed to be refunded. Where then there’s some government structure that they’ve and voting system where, you know what I mean.
Brandon: It’s like with WeTrust and if you’re putting the bids in for who needs this money for a loan or investment for a company the lowest bid is actually the one who ends up eventually getting it and it goes towards this pool money that people can share now and use and go towards businesses that someone actually needs to develop and then grow it.
Taylor: So I mean, that’s the thing is like these things don’t like fully exist in their entirely right now but that’s what we’re working towards. That’s what everyone is working towards building these systems and some people are building, you know, literally just a protocol or a system in order to enable people to vote using their coins or government structures in general like doing massive amounts of research on how does a collective group of people make, you know, the right decision.
Daniel: So in your mind, is this a complete positive way to a full infrastructure overhaul to rebuilding tons of different system that were integrated in our daily lives that we don’t really realize.
Taylor: Yeah, I mean, if it keeps going this way and I think that’s why we’re seeing, you know, I think that the while the price of like ETH right now and Bitcoin is so much of it is speculative at the same time there is real value here. And there are ideas and projects and really smart people that are building things that are going to make a difference.
And even if you don’t like – even if the original goals of project don’t like work out 100%. Like let’s say Swarm City like they work their asses of for two years and, you know, they have this thing that’s working and they have this community and they have drivers and they have all these stuff but like it just doesn’t ever like take that next step and become Uber, that’s okay. Because the knowledge that you learn. Because the technology that you built. Because of this forum. Because of whatever it is that’s going to play role in everyone else’s projects but it’s also going to make Uber or Lyft or the next ride sharing company make different decisions based on the success of this decentralized way.
So maybe that’s, you know, moving part of their system into a more transparent way or maybe that’s moving part of their systems on to the Blockchain to reduce transaction fees. You know, these sort of things aren’t going to – like I’m not going to tell you that we’re going to wake up in like 5, 10, 15, 20 years and everything is going to be Ethereum. Like I think that this whole decentralized transparent Blockchain technology is going to to be like a much – it’s like the, you know, the promises of the original internet have not been achieved today but what like the things that have been achieved are so far beyond that and so different than that that it’s – it doesn’t really matter like it still changed the world.
Brandon: No, the interesting thing you said before is like when we’re talking about value is a lot of people to consumers, yes, use your money, you know, use your purchases to determine on how a company is going to go off and do things. And we’ve seen that there’s no accountability in that still because there is no value in it. And the same thing goes with something in politics, you know, “go out and vote,” they say.
It’s going to change everything when a certain amount of people still get to determine whether it’s your lobbying or your financing politicians who actually gets decisions made and how it gets done and what this thing right here is it just changes the rules. Because I have the same problem with another company like Vemma. I had too much money coming in to a certain place here and there and I didn’t follow their rules and then I got thrown off.
Taylor: Right, and you’re done. And Vemma made money the whole time.
Brandon: Entire time.
Taylor: That’s what sucks.
Kevin: They are promising like to hold your money too.
Brandon: Yeah, but again it’s for someone to say and look at and say, “Okay, this is what they’ve been doing. This is what they did do.” If I want to create something and find the problem – find the problem if someone is using it. You fix the problem before but I’m going to make it even better. And like you’re saying I know what the entire thing with Ethereum is, is to make the building of this applications even easier and more optimal.
Taylor: Exactly. So yeah, I mean it’s – that’s a really good way of putting it. And it’s you know, the value of this entire thing is going to be the value of the people building things and the value of the people using things. And the value of regular who aren’t developers. Who aren’t like me like I’m not super smart right like I mean not one of these geniuses who is like figuring out these protocol level issues that are going to enable like this future world where anything is possible like -- but what I do do is like I learn about it, I support those smart people in every way I can.
I hang out and I provide my opinions and I use the products and I provide feedback on those products. These are things that everyone can do and you know, by doing that – by joining these communities. By learning what you can. By like basically trying to enable yourself and to like – I don’t want to like get to like anarchy issue but like you as a person should have more rights and the ability to do things without all of these third parties controlling everything you do which is how it currently is set-up whether that’s the government, a bank or like google, Dropbox, Apple.
Daniel: Yeah, I think people – like my opinion is that people are going to get left behind, the ones that don’t adapt to something like this. It’s not anarchy issue but I think the technology is fantastic, it exist, it’s going to give people access to things they didn’t have access to before like just think about some group of people in Sub-Saharan Africa who their government won’t allow them to do transactions or like some construction company and they're trying to get funds from someone in Europe.
Like if you look at America and we have a lot of Bureaucracy and we’re making it difficult for our construction company in America to help them get – if we’re not allowing us to do CryptoCurrency trades with these people in Sub-Saharan Africa but China is and then guess what? China is going to interact with them and it’s going to help them become you know, now we’re talking on a whole another level. We’re talking they’ll become the super power because all these Sub-Saharan African countries who needed.
There are tons of countries out there that need this. I would assume that the people that would adopt this first are the ones that have a difficult time making transactions. Before we even started the show, we are complaining about how, you know, it can take eight hours to get your money but those people down there their entire lives they’ve waited weeks to even get food. So imagine this technology comes around and it gives you the potential to all of a sudden buy something on Amazon food you had to wait two weeks for and now you can get it shipped in via drone and it comes in.
And I just for see that, you know, back to the negative the pessimist in me. I just for see that if America doesn’t allow us to adopt something like this then we’re going to get left behind because the countries that do adopt it are going to move in the future quick. They’re going to have the technology and integrate it and then they’re going to be able to innovate quicker.
Taylor: Right. I mean, even like I’ll say that the US regulations specially surrounding this like they're not the worst. Some say it’s our worst than others but I will say that they are not on a lot of Ethereum people like in the US. Like one of the reasons I was almost late this morning was because, you know, I’m typically up 4 or 5am because everyone in Switzerland or other places in Europe because Switzerland is encouraging development in these decentralized technologies, in the Blockchain, in the Crypto.
Like they’re encouraging that. Where in the US, they’re like -- Okay, if my MyEtherWallet want to take the next step and kind of do what Coinbase does which is enable you to like purchase via us or have us have like back up or like these sorts of things that would make everyone’s lives easier. I have to get what’s called a money transmitter’s license which I have to get from every single state and it’s like basically a million dollar like overhead just for that license to be able to do that.
Daniel: That was a great night. That’s part of the game.
Taylor: That’s the sound of the US like losing its position in the world.
Daniel: All right and the anarchism begins.
Taylor: It’s interesting. But you’re right, I mean, the thing is that the people who adopt and evolve are going to do better. Then the ones that, you know, where – I mean, I think the biggest problem – one of the biggest problem with the US is just the amount of like the top 1% of everything. Whether, you know, it’s just as an individual you don’t have the power that you should to do pretty much anything you want. And that’s not how it’s suppose to be like the whole idea behind and it’s funny because –
Taylor: I hate – this is what I find so ironic is that like so the people that typically like bring up the constitution and like throw it in your face are Republicans but they're the ones that are like encouraging this sort of world where the top 1% win, you know.
Daniel: This is the first thing I feel like that truly gives power into every single person. At least after finishing this conversation.
Brandon: Again, it’s those rules like she said, the rules that a certain people created and the rules for even [inaudible 01:14:03] your six figure republican politician is still creating rules that’s the only enhanced that 1% to gain even more power.
Kevin: [inaudible 01:14:16]ruin the markets. And I don’t have that much money.
Taylor: You can be the 1% in Crypto.
Kevin: And I literally can ruin the market.
Taylor: That’s not a good thing honey.
Kevin: But like this is the thing is like usually that dude with like millions and millions of dollars, I’m going to do anything about the fact that like I might know something better that he does [inaudible 01:14:41] buy me out of it.
Taylor: That’s the most pessimistic I’ve heard today.
Kevin: It’s not.
Taylor: Because I don’t want you to do that.
Kevin: I cannot lose control of like where I’m at based on the fact that dude has millions of dollars like I--
Brandon: Should we slide him in?
Taylor: Oh I see. Okay come here and you can – come here.
Brandon: Slide a chair in.
Taylor: Because this is a thing is like I won’t talk about trading but he will. But don’t talk – don’t be pessimistic. We’re trying to talk about how the future is going to be awesome.
Kevin: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying is it gets like all of like the little guys have much bigger foot hold. Like there’s so many guys and these are the people that are so much like the traders that you read about that are like I made $100,000 with $5,000. It’s because these dudes actually like are incredibly smart and good at something but because of like brokers things on the market and what not.
They have no chance of like getting that foot in. Or as now it’s like you can take $5, throw it on [inaudible 01:15:42] and like exchange it and make money. like and the thing is with the way the Crypto is going these days is as long as you’re putting money in the Crypto you’re making money.
Taylor: And what happens when the bubble pops?
Kevin: As long as you invested two years ago, you’re straight but –
Taylor: I mean, okay, but let’s talk about this because this is the thing. Listeners are going to ask especially with the price going through the roof. Their number question is like, “Okay should I buy right now?”
Kevin: The thing is like I actually didn’t –
Taylor: I mean, would you advice someone that you care about -- not the audience because we cannot give investment advice. But would you advice someone that you care deeply about to take their money and buy Crypto right now?
Kevin: Yeah, if well it depends on how much they're trying to throw in to it and like what the turn of the investment is because like if you are planning on throwing money for 10 years right now. Like you’re like “I have this money I don’t need it for 10 years” Absolutely, I can throw in that money into Crypto it’s most likely going to pay off based the technology and the way it’s growing right now but like about like short time like no. I don’t think that like there’s a huge bubble right now we’re up 20 times or 10 times what we were in January.
Taylor: Okay, so as a--
Daniel: So the bubble is purely speculatory is what you guy –
Kevin: The Crypto except the Bitcoin right now. It’s 100% speculative.
Daniel: But if you believe in the technology then the – but it’s still a bubble. It’s like a speculatory bubble and not an actual technological bubble.
Taylor: Right, so I mean, that’s the thing is that the bubble exist and the bubble exist for whatever reason exist but if you look at the charts it’s gone up very, very rapidly and you don’t know how much is going to go up and you don’t know how much of that is purely speculative and how much is, you know, actually the market seeing this as valuable.
Daniel: Is it inflated because there is people see like this ICOs or these other coins. They’re like, “Oh, new coins. New coins.” So then –
Taylor: I mean, it’s just – it’s –
Kevin: Some of it is the major adoption. So Korea, Japan.
Brandon: The Korea is all in.
Kevin: Huge like this was like the 600 to 1500 jump was, I think, Korea or maybe in India. But literally like this just a Bitcoin and this is the thing is we’re complaining about the block times but like these people don’t give two craps like they are – they just like are happy to have this ability to transfer money essentially between themselves and someone else without like, you know, they're like five cents a day that they are working for like that they're like well maybe I can get food for my family.
Brandon: Well that shows why the technology is going to be used almost no matter what.
Kevin: And this is why I say it’s just a long term that’s great but like the thing is like we’re up 5000% on a ton of these currencies in six months. That’s unheard of like if you would see that on a stock market, you short everything because like literally it’s going to blow out. My buddy who also does like real like stock market stuff is showing me this thing and we’re actually in a two times as long as our last bubble. Last was I think like I think it was like six years since been I don’t know 3 years and I’m in 12 years the actual fall.
Taylor: What bubble though? The Crypto bubble?
Kevin: The real estate. The stock bubble like when the market crashed.
Taylor: Oh the general market.
Brandon: Back 2008.
Daniel: So general market bubble.
Kevin: General market bubble, we are on – it’s literally been twice as long and we’re twice as high as we were last time and we’re right at the point of where it looks like it’s going to next two-three years.
Daniel: My biggest thing is, if where is it look if this money is funneling like money is –
Brandon: It’s printed have nothing.
Daniel: If Fiat came originally from somewhere, so where the Fiat the regular money that came in came from somewhere. Shouldn’t somewhere be losing money. That’s in my – I’m like, “Who’s losing?”
Kevin: Yeah, it’s losing money.
Taylor: But where does it – that’s what he’s asking. Is where does it go like how does the market—
Daniel: Who do we short on the other end of the market while these go on?
Brandon: From reserve.
Taylor: Right, exactly. It’s all like that’s the thing is that it’s all when we talk about a market cap going up a million dollars or even a billion dollars. That’s like what .0001%. That’s the Fed changing the interest rate on the real estate .0001% or something. You know what I mean so that’s the thing is like it’s hard to say like that this money was somewhere or isn’t somewhere whatever it’s like all money in the world has like a certain of speculative value and especially when you take the fact that everything relies on these interest rates. It’s like so abstract.
Daniel: Yeah, this becomes such an [inaudible 01:20:18] to like get deeper into this it’s like we’re not –
Taylor: And I have no idea how it actually works.
Daniel: Yeah, we’re not like the deepest in economics.
Taylor: Okay, I have one more question for you. If you are your average person, okay, like you’re average of average intelligence, average means.
Taylor: Average means, average everything. What things do you consider when you’re making like an investment into any coin, any CryptoCurrency. Like what things should you look at?
Kevin: Going to look at the potential of a technology is one thing that you look for is like do you actually like believe in this thing like is this something that actually is a real thing that is going to be productive in the world.
Brandon: I have a scenario for you. So for example, let’s say, you want to invest a certain coin that is based of an Ethereum platform and you know that if this company or this technology – the application that they’re developing is going to be successful that’s going to feed into the price of what Ethereum will potentially be. So if you’re investing and you believe in Ethereum, you believe in the different applications and chains that are attached along to it. You can make, you know, an investment into something because you know it’s going to not just go towards the overall price of let’s say a Golem because that’s something based of the Ethereum platform that’s also going to benefit Ethereum itself.
Kevin: Yeah, it’s one of the interesting things at this point is that, Ethereum price is going to kind of like support all of these tokens because they're all based on it. But I mean it will be interesting to see how when these some of these companies do succeed or don’t succeed how that actually affects the price.
Daniel: As soon as some work though I would assume like if they work then other people are going to okay these other ones can work.
Taylor: Yeah, so when you like – when I asked you like, “Hey, what do you think of X token that’s having a sale next week?” When I ask you that, right, you go on your computer and you google things or whatever, you read things. What do you – how do you like what do you search for, what do you look at.
Daniel: I don’t want to give away my roommates secrets on this one.
Taylor: That would like what types of things or like red flags and what sorts of things are green flags.
Kevin: So red flags would be like a company increasing its cap a week before its token sale. That’s a red flag. Things that like, I mean, things are basicaly seem scammy. Like if you’re reading a white paper and it sounds like the people don’t know what they’re talking about, they probably don’t.
Daniel: Do you look at their history like do you look at someone’s history like the creator, do you go back and look where they went to school, how good they are at UX, like if they're actual coder.
Kevin: Not usually that far actually. So within the Ethereum community, it’s so small that you can actually look at most these guys in the core community have worked on other projects and you can see how they interacted with people in those projects because it’s all public.
Taylor: So what would make a good like I can say that I when I choose to invest in things, I like people that are less loud like that are more just like put their heads down and work. And that’s just a personal choice of mine. So that’s one thing that like I personally look for is like – are these people just super, super into marketing and being loud and producing this like crazy expensive like marketing videos. If that’s the case, I’m usually more reluctant to invest. Whereas some people actually see it as a benefit and a more likely to invest for that same reason because having a strong marketing team and making a bunch of noise is usually, you know,--
Daniel: Fake it until you make it. Yeah.
Taylor: Yeah, make – yeah. Exactly.
Kevin: So like real proof of concept is the thing that like doesn’t happen a lot with these new ones. It’s like, you know, we have these idea that’s where this are stopping. Like, “Give me money, I have this idea, give me money.”
Daniel: So the ICOs, they can be scams essentially.
Taylor: Oh yeah.
Kevin: Lots of them are. Absolutely are.
Taylor: That’s what I’m trying to get him to say because he’ll – this is the thing, I ask him almost all the time. I’m like, “Hey babe, I just heard this random sale that’s happening in a week, what do you think?” And he’ll just go, “Scam.” Like he’ll literally just say, “Scam.” Without saying anyone’s name.
Daniel: [inaudible 01:24:32]
Taylor: What traits not specific, general, because we’re talking about these listeners are going to be looking at this in right now, in a month, in six months. What general things are huge red flags?
Kevin: There is a company that basically controls an outright at all of your code for you. You’re like, “You tell, I tell you my idea and you write my token contract. Deal with my presale, deal with the website.” You basically create everything for me. All I’ve done is tell you what I thought my idea was for this ICO and then you control everything after that one.
Daniel: So that they pay them for the idea.
Daniel: Why are you saying it’s a scam.
Kevin: I pay – because – so I don’t know how to build any of these. Although I had an idea to do something like having an idea to do something does not make you a good company like you have to be able – like the proof concept. You have to be able to build your idea. Copyright and Trade marking is like one the shittiest things in the world because you have people that are like I have this idea. I’m going to trade mark them. I’m going to patent it. And now no one else can build it. Like and so you have all of these ideas that literally people like, “Can I build this?” And they can’t and like they do and they get sued. Like literally by this companies and like this is something that like we’re kind of protecting here but like –
Daniel: So to look through – so when you’re doing a research for trading and you’re looking through, what are the signs to – what are the signs to noticing that this is someone who is just an idea person and not an actual developer? What are the signs that someone in the public can just do in their basic research and their basic homework.
Kevin: So a good act of team, usually, they’ll have a bigger they’re going like almost always. Like I’m on fucking five betas right now because of the fact that they exist and someone is like get on this beta like meet this team and the thing is like all of these teams are like you can interact with like I can get on to my computer and talk to the people creating this.
It’s not like – and then when I talk to them they know what they’re talking about, “They're like this is my idea, this is how -- this how we’re building it. This is our team.” It’s not like, “Oh, this is my idea.” And then you’re like, “Well, what is that?” and they're like, “I don’t know how it works.”
Daniel: So you can gage interaction between and fairly easily.
Kevin: Yeah, and they’re very on point and like intelligent about what they’re doing like they’ll never – if you ask someone about what their product is and they sound confused like it’s a scam. If you ask someone how they’re doing like how to fix something in their contracts and they don’t know how the contract was written. It’s a scam.
Daniel: Literally, no, before we even started this podcast when we first came out with the idea and we’re talking to people and talking about and you’d asked us like, “What’s your idea?” And we’re trying to explain it to him and we don’t really know what the hell you’re talking about, you know what, that’s blatant at that point back then when I’m able to retrospectively look into myself and say, “Okay, yeah, if I ask someone at that time, give me $50,000 for my podcast.” They’d go, -- actually that fucking person talk about myself. Doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
Taylor: Yeah, that’s excellent and that’s the difference is that you back then should not have gotten $50,000 for that idea. It doesn’t make it a bad idea. It doesn’t make it wrong to pursue that. But it doesn’t mean that you should be rewarded for your confused like use your like ideas or like hopes or desires but once you have the podcast, once you’ve taken this up. So you figured it out, you’ve set up the things you needed to set-up. You have your SoundCloud. Then, you know, everything comes together and then you can go ask for money. And that’s what I hope moving forward we’ll start to see more of these ICOs and these tokens. Start raising money a little bit later in the process where they’ve worked through the basic like ideation stage because it’s like quite scary.
Brandon: I mean, from my reading and understanding everything with Ethereum looks to do it provides the transparency if it hits the platform. Everybody is building off their platform.
Brandon: Is there anything else like Ethereum where people can – that people are building off a platform like that or is it just they are just taking, “Oh, I like this idea that they are using, I like this idea and okay I’m going to make it a CryptoCurrency.”
Kevin: I’m pretty sure Ethereum is unique in a sense that it’s not – it’s only ones it was built as a network not as a like store value transfer like money from A to B. It’s like ETH was the side product like the currency was the side product to fuel the network.
Taylor: Yeah, and that is like one of the – I mean personally that’s what like back in like 2013, 2014 when Vitalik started like talking about Ethereum and the white paper came out. That’s one of the things that really like turn me on because I was really sick of like – I was really sick of Bitcoin being referred to as digital gold. Like I didn’t – like that’s not what I wanted out of like this future thing where anything is possible and it turns out like the best use case is to hold it forever and then sell it when you’re old I guess, you know.
Daniel: Like what mechanism can we put in place that acts like an interest rate, you know, you raise an interest rate, it actually funnels out the bullshit from the bottom essentially. Is it anything like that possible so could funnel out the coins or we just going to let them ride through?
Taylor: I mean, it’s --
Kevin: I think over time you’ll see a total change. Right now it’s so new and there’s so many people that are like I mean the thing is -- and I see this, is that there is a lot of like not so – like well off people that are like I can develop a little bit and people are throwing millions and millions of dollars at ideas. Like I don’t have to build that far and like I could use this money and that’s where I think a lot of the thoughts stops. But I think further down the road when you have some of these companies fail and some of them succeed, people will start being more mindful of where they are putting money.
Daniel: A filter will get created somewhere along the line. Yeah.
Kevin: Well right now the value is going up so fast and everything and the thing is like even with these tokens. Like I have buddies they are like throwing they are like, “Oh the value is up.” I’m like, “No, it’s not if you had held your ETH you would have more money right now.” like literally like, “Yes your USD values up but if had not invested in that ICO. Right now you would have more money.” Like your Fiat value would be worth more based on just holding on to that ETH.
Kevin: And there’s only like one or two tokens that have not done that. Like literally – in all of like the hundreds of ICOs, there’s only two tokens right now that held their value.
Taylor: Compared to ETH.
Kevin: Like If you have not put your ETH into it and held on to your ETH, your ETH will be worth more right now than 99% of the ICOs.
Brandon: I’m confused.
Taylor: Okay so –
Kevin: You pay for your tokens in ETH and you get like a hundred tokens for 1 ETH, right. So if you’ve held on to that 1 ETH, so right now it would still be worth more than this hundred tokens. So like your 1 ETH is worth more than a hundred tokens you bought. There’s only two tokens that like that hundred is now worth 2 ETH.
Daniel: So basically hold on to your ETH.
Daniel: Don’t let it go.
Taylor: I mean, because the thing is is that and this is where it gets really complicated you buy the tokens in ETH and you compare the ETH to US dollars but then you look at the increase in value of the token compared to US dollars. And it’s not appropriate to do so. That’s where like this sort of problem comes in because you’re like, “Man, I made so much, I’m up 2x compared to US dollars.” But ETH is up 3x.
Daniel: This is what you were saying about the Fiat thing that you’re comparing against Fiat and when you buy something in not Fiat you should be comparing it against that not against Fiat.
Kevin: And so like this is the shift and like if you’re using like Poloniex and like they got to do is [inaudible 01:32:29] whenever but like Poloniex has not use – like everything is against Bitcoin and now they have an ETH market too. But like they -- initially everything was against Bitcoin. So like I don’t even know what the USD prices and stuff was when I was trading. She’d be like, “Oh my God, it’s this.” And I’d be like, “Aye, it’s fucking .5 Bitcoin.”
Brandon: A friend of ours when we were – it was in that shift between like the 160 and the 200 and they deep down. He said you should be still looking to see if Ethereum is going to be .07 Bitcoin in the morning and not – whether it’s [inaudible 01:33:03] USD price range or the market and you say, “Oh, it’s pretty cheap right now.” But you’re not buying it on there as a USD. You’re buying it as Bitcoin.
Kevin: Exactly, and that’s why like the ETH to a Bitcoin it’s like – actually ETH is down to Bitcoin a little bit right now but it’s not. Like Bitcoin is up a lot right now but so is ETH. So it’s like yes, you’re both up but like buying ETH want to Bitcoin doesn’t make sense right now.
Daniel: I think what that’s like one of the reason that it puts people off from trading because I have other friends who want to get in and then you even try to explain them well you got to get Bitcoin first before you can and then that – even that is too much for somebody. So yeah, the utilities are.
Taylor: Well, the Coinbase now you can –
Kevin: It has a lot.
Brandon: There is even Bitcoin vending machines. I mean, I found one right down the street from my house in Florida. And it’s like, there -- In that neighborhood, in that community. But it’s there. They're all over the country.
Taylor: So those are super cool. Those are also cool. The anarchy side knows this. so if you want to like –
Daniel: Bring out the anarchist.
Taylor: With the ATMs like you can’t withdraw a super a lot of money and like they charge you a fee but like also it’s not going in your bank account it’s going to spit out cash. So you know, like wear a hoody and go get your cash and hey, like it never touches your finger. That’s a really, really positive thing. With Coinbase – so Coinbase now you can buy ETH. So that makes it way easier.
Brandon: Go ahead.
Kevin: It’s you Sir. It’s all you Sir.
Brandon: No, no, no, no.
Kevin: I’m going to start asking about virtual reality so.
Brandon: I was about to give comment without – you have a question. This is questions proceed comments.
Kevin: My stuff was virtual reality like it just seems when we start getting into more advance technology, in the VR space, like you’re going to need to integrate this anyway. Like there are other parallel technologies coming out that it seems like this technology will get integrated and what do you feel about that.
Do you think that something like VR is going to – like right now VR I would say is putting into ad space. They're working of putting up ads like someone is telling me that he works for – yesterday we’re being told that his girlfriend works for VR company that puts ad space like for Doritos is putting. Ads on the billboard are racing game in VR. You know what I mean and so when you think about that – when you think about purchases through VR – meeting, buying Sims pieces for your –
Taylor: For you virtual bedroom.
Kevin: Yes, exactly. So when you’re building that and you’re going to need to pay for things like these is the time for a technology like that to figure out their integration structure for monetize – for bringing in monetary instruments. And so I would guess that they – that this is like a crossroads where they would decide like, “Okay, do we use this technology or do we use, you know, a standard way of doing things.” And it gets built into the system. So it might be other but do you know if anything like that is being built into somebody’s programs or structures.
Taylor: I know, so there’s –
Kevin: I mean [inaudible 01:36:09]
Taylor: No, the first blood is something – I don’t – it’s like pushing my limits [inaudible 01:36:19]
Daniel: Well I know what company I’m starting.
Taylor: First blood is, I think, they're more like e-sports though but it’s that same sort of realm.
Daniel: Gaming especially would seem like the biggest –
Taylor: Oh my God, yeah. And see that’s the thing and I’m not a gamer, so like I don’t like follow this as much but, like yes. The other thing is that, you know, going back to like sort of the rewarding that content creators, you know, it’s the same thing with these VRs is like, okay, you have this company who is producing the, I mean, that’s even more complicated so you have the company that’s producing the hardware and then the game for it and then you have the users and then you have like this distribution models.
Daniel: [inaudible 01:37:00] let me bet through there, you know, like, “Oh, I’m playing U in virtual FIFA $10 each.”
Taylor: The US government is not going to let you.
Taylor: That’s the problem. But yeah, so when we’re talking about rewarding content creators though it’s like it would make so much more sense if you could buy the game from them and then instead of putting ads in they just like don’t they just get rewarded. Instead of like having to, you know, the whole it’s with everything with movies with everything. With the studio system.
Daniel: You could pay to use every time you use the game. I could -- instead of owning the game, I could pay like a micro penny to use the game and every time I do they charge me to play.
Kevin: [inaudible 01:37:39] cut out of tunnel like the overhead for these companies and things. So like instead of paying 50 bucks for a game like a cent for a game will be fine because like if you could pay the dude that created the video came a cent and like everyone that bought Call of Duty paid the dude that created Call of Duty one cent like the dude will have billions of dollars. He’d be straight on that. But like it cost $50 because he’s got this company and a team and then like all of it like all the other stuff.
Taylor: the marketing and advertising.
Daniel: So this could break down corporations.
Kevin: Hopefully, yeah, absolutely.
Taylor: And I know, I mean, let’s not be like tomorrow we’re going to wake up and there’s not going to be like anymore studios and anymore like corporations but what it will do is like it will – the structure where like the top dogs are so far up here and they controlled so much, right. We’ll start seeing the flow and the distribution move towards the bottom, towards the content creators, towards the people that have the talents, not the people that have like the talents in managing the people that have the talents and manage – you know what I mean like it’s so –
Brandon: Yeah, same thing is happening with like some of the Wecoins they’re coming out the Potcoin or the other one because –
Kevin: That one makes me laugh so hard because I get emails from that one every week about how the Pot stocks are souring and then I’m like, “Well, I’m getting this.”
Taylor: Sorry, sorry. What is Potcoin?
Daniel: So I think, sort of like Beercoin and the idea behind it was that you can like buy your weed with Potcoins.
Brandon: I think it was trying to take away the service of lot of these this State set. You know have to put their money somewhere. They can’t do it because all these bank institutions are federal institutions. They can’t put the money in. That actually is a great service that it has taken the place of.
Kevin: But it never is moving and I get the email saying it’s going up every week and I’m like, “No.”
Taylor: This is the difference. I love my husband to death but this is the difference between us like me, I’m like, “That sounds like a great idea.” He is like, “Yeah, but the price hasn’t move.” I’m like, “Great but like maybe should like, I don’t know look just to see if it could do something better so that the price could move for you like I don’t know.”
Kevin: If it was implemented as more than an idea which is like what we were talking about with –
Taylor: Oh okay so it just hasn’t come to fruition yet.
Kevin: Yeah, no one is using it. Like at the point that someone uses it.
Brandon: At the entire – let’s say a state of Colorado – Washington actually incorporated this and said, “Listen, we’re going to be, you know, that states rights blah-blah-blah up here is US government.” And we’re just going to do it this way and we have place to put our money now because you are literally telling us that we cannot secure our money. We have to have guns, trucks, everything to make sure that we can store these somewhere. This paper that doesn’t count for anything.
Taylor: Yeah, well we had that problem like literally like right here maybe what six-seven years ago. I think there was—
Kevin: One bank would give you – so Wells Fargo when it existed out here –
Taylor: Or you’re talking about thefts. Like basically every single – you talk about it, you know more than I do.
Kevin: So the thing out here that was the biggest problem for like the dispenser is that they wanted to pay taxes was that they couldn’t get a bank account. So there is one bank that did it and then they like started like freezing people’s accounts and stuff.
And then in 2008 they decided to start sending letters out to all of the Dispensaries that weren’t paying their taxes and are like, “You have to shut down or pay like exorbitant amounts of money, which no one did because they couldn’t. Like literally what are they going to do? Walk into the IRS with like a backpack full of cash.
Taylor: And so, that’s the thing so what is Potcoin need to make it a like what’s –
Daniel: Well Potcoin from my understanding of it. It solves the banking problem but it also will literally fail if the banking problem get solved in the United States. Like if we allow the banking to –
Kevin: If it legalizes.
Daniel: If it legalizes then that coin will fail completely but if it doesn’t then it’s an incredible coin. So it rides on that contingent issue.
Kevin: On the fact that it’s illegal.
Brandon: It’s not that elaborate of a coin but it takes away – it covers a service for now but in the future like you said when it becomes legalized then it becomes obsolete.
Taylor: Yeah, so I mean, that’s another – that’s like a great point about when we’re talking about whether or not you should buy X coin is, you know, talking about risk like a risk with Potcoin is, you know, this is like a single solitary decision that somebody can make somewhere would basically defeat the purpose of this coin.
And so you have to like take another consideration those risk like if what’s the potential that the bank or the bank start accepting it what’s the potential of it being legalized. You know, I would say that’s like probably – there’s a probably a pretty high risk in that, you know.
Daniel: So you’re saying there’s just so many unknown factors that go into so many external unknown factors that go into these coins that yeah, when you’re looking to trade the coin you can look at – is the utility good, is the creator good, does the code work, are the people who’re investing in it worth it. But you know, then also need to look at what are the future potential options of this coin like what could go wrong, what could hinder this, what is the litigation behind it, what – so there is still a lot that needs to be understood and so that’s why it’s still speculative.
But it doesn’t, you know, bringing back to reoccurring theme, it doesn’t change like how the potential of the market exist and so to me that’s why Ethereum is still the home run because that I don’t see not needing like that technology is what is needed.
Kevin: So I’m pretty sure that there’s no other outlet that has the potential of growth that Crypto does right now but there’s also – there’s no not risky Crypto investment. And that means your time, your money, anything that you – like basically these Blockchains like at any point like what happens if they just start failing like they go down.
Like you can’t – they just stop working like the [inaudible 01:43:47] rate of Bitcoin gets so bad that the miners are like, “This is stupid.” And turn off their computers. Now you don’t have a running Blockchain.
Taylor: So what’s the risk of that happening with Bitcoin.
Kevin: Not very high. It’s like that’s such a strong –
Daniel: So it’s like a pyramid where at the top it’s harder for a chance to that to happen and at the bottom it’s much more difficult.
Kevin: And the longer and the more foot hold it gets and the more valuable it becomes the harder it is to get rid-off essentially.
Taylor: And this is like one of the reasons so many people are putting the tokens on Ethereum is because like Potcoin for example is its own chain, right. So if they don’t have enough miners and they don’t have enough people using and they don’t have enough activity it like the security of the network itself goes down.
Daniel: So the less users, the less secure minus the less that the system works so it’s contingent also on that it’s still functioning robustly.
Kevin: The miners are like the fundamental necessity of the Blockchains and like some people realize this but like not everyone does and like people don’t realize that like the gas fees are actually paying these miners.
Daniel: Isn’t that why is that with the Vitalik – my listeners might not understand this but isn’t that why Vitalik is working so hard on reducing gas price so that it keeps that possibility low. I don’t know if I made that up in my head.
Taylor: So Ethereum will switch to proof of stake and I don’t know a year November.
Daniel: Proof of stake – can you explain proof of stake. Here we go.
Taylor: All right, another rabbit hole guys. Okay, so mining is called proof of work and basically the way that you insure the security of the network. The way that, you know, everyone is doing their job and the reason you can’t go back in time and have somebody or a group of people say that, “Oh this transaction didn’t happen. Let’s just like delete this transaction.”
Daniel: Like we talked about earlier.
Taylor: So the reason all of that can’t be done is because these very powerful computers and computations are the thing that the miners like when you talk about mining like they are running this like very hard mathematical equations and they're proving that they worked hard and that has a cost and then if they worked hard and they build the blocks in the way –
Daniel: The cost meaning the electrical cost – the electricity like it’s a cost to run the electricity in your house.
Taylor: So right, electricity and the like the hardware itself like these really complex computer chips and managing it all that. So that’s the cost and then if they do everything correctly and they keep the network running in a way that is good then they are rewarded like they get the transaction fees and that’s proof of work. Okay so, the problems with proof of work is well like I don’t know having like everyone mining with so much electricity in order to like secure this network like is actually costly on like a global economic scale and like environmental scale. So it’s fine like if you have like a little coin here like a few people mining it, you know, you’re like, “Okay, well my electric bill is up $10.” But if you have like, you know, --
Daniel: So sustainability of scale is a major issue.
Kevin: I know like literally like pollute. Like the globe.
Taylor: Like when I say to this like the server forms like you’ll have to go in like google like –
Kevin: Your house with walls of like rocks of computers and [inaudible 01:47:37]
Brandon: There’s a story, you know better about this than I would. About in Venezuela, because energy is free down there. There’s a lot of people mining Bitcoins.
Kevin: Yeah, they are mining the Bitcoin. So you guys are familiar with the story. They are mining – it create this micro economy of Bitcoin for our listeners where people in Venezuela -- the electricity is free and so since it’s government sponsored electricity they are able to go in and mine Bitcoin and use this Bitcoin to – so you know, they can’t get their food because of Fiat the dollar the price.
Taylor: Well, the bigger problem I think is in Venezuela they're the ones that the inflation rate is through the roof of their Fiat currency.
Kevin: Yeah, that’s the big problem. So that’s why they are willing to do this and mine for the Bitcoin but what’s even cooler and I say cool is because they are mining Bitcoin – people know that they have to get an absurb – that they have to trade this the only way they can do this is they have to trade. So the trade on the other end is not with the market price is it’s like 4x with the market price is. So they are getting these horrible market so it created this—
Taylor: So they're just inflated everywhere.
Daniel: So the buyer side is actually, if you can be a buyer on the buy side you’re killing it you’re making a ton of money by trading with these people who are literally mining for Bitcoin for 80 bucks a month so that they can, you know, have money to food. And then another way around is what they are doing and they are taking the Bitcoin money and they're ordering Amazon, they're having it shipped to Miami. And then in Miami they have these parcel services that are delivering the food to Venezuela so that people can get their food because it’s like a pre set-up service. So I don’t –
Kevin: They don’t have to do international it’s pretty epic.
Daniel: It’s pretty crazy. So me and him we’re talking about going out in there and doing it.
Taylor: Yeah, that’s amazing.
Kevin: That’s why I’m actually been – I mean, Arbitrage is such a fun idea but with the block times it’s like not a feasible thing.
Taylor: Wait, I’m not done with [inaudible 01:49:35] though. This is insane.
Daniel: I mean, for X price I will go down there I might get killed in the streets I mean it seems like a high probably.
Taylor: This is like Crypto world problems, though.
Daniel: Just kidding. We’re just kidding.
Kevin: India also had the same set-up that they were basically trading Bitcoin like 2-4x what its worth. And that’s actually what made the price go up to like 1,500 bucks. Whatever that initial jump was because in one exchange in India implemented Bitcoin, which enabled all of India to use this exchange in Bitcoin. And it filled up the Blockchains so they went from like whatever but an hour and half to like four hours for confirmations and the price is.
Taylor: That you’re like so far over people’s head right now. Like you’re over my head.
Kevin: Like basically like they – because they're – they also have like a micro economy based on Bitcoin because of the fact that they adopted it and only like, you know, you can use it if you can use it so it’s actually like it has a different – and it’s hard for me like I was like, “I can Arbitrage. I can stick Bitcoin in this Indian exchange.” And I can’t, it’s hard. Like it’s hard to get like, so basically they have like –
Taylor: What is it all mean?
Daniel: How does it affect the system?
Taylor: Like what does it all mean?
Kevin: You got the hard questions over there. It’s like you’re taking away like it’s giving people like in this countries like third world countries that like are just straight like, I mean, like India has like really bad like ability. So like people -- Ability to get food and like stuff. Like Venezuela is similar in the sense.
Brandon: Well they did that with their currency recently. They just took out the 500 and 1000 rupee bill and they said, “You have to exchange this in the bank until a certain day or time but you know you can never use this again.”
Taylor: The basis is that sort of like kind of what’s stem the demand for Bitcoin was that are they related or?
Brandon: When they made that initial jump to 1,500 that was longer a while ago. This recent – this happen a little recently maybe five to six months ago. When they recently did this, but again I’m sure it only simulated that little micro economy that did exist.
Kevin: So basically it’s like there is in little – in countries and we don’t see this because we’re first world country, people have money around us, like.
Kevin: When you go to this countries to build down like you literally like they're actually hurting like and separating the like problems between like the government ruining people’s lives.
Taylor: So does Bitcoin solve that?
Kevin: It is solving that for all of these people and that’s why these like eight hour block times don’t bother them at all.
Daniel: I mean, when you think about it full circle so looking up the thing full circle it has already utility in some places. That same utility causes us problems in other places and it’s just, I mean, we’ve been exploring all these different topics and how it affects the price. And how it affects the market and the how -- the way people view it. And the way they experience the entire, you know, bit of the currency.
Which is cool that we’re exploring like all those elements of what this thing is that probably people don’t ever get to really look at. You add it from all those different angles. And when you take it back to electricity and sustainability it’s a great question that I’m curious like that brings us back to the core elements, the miners that you guys were talking about is, is electricity –
Taylor: Yeah, that’s where we started.
Daniel: Yeah, that’s where the – well you said we’re going to go down the rabbit hole. It was one of those prairie dog holes but still.
Brandon: It’s a full circle. Full circle.
Taylor: Okay, so anyways because like electricity and like the environment is up like has a cost, right. Even if you’re like you’re a person in Venezuela and the electricity is free like the government is paying for it. Like somebody or the environment is paying for it whatever. So Ethereum is currently proof of work meaning that you have the miners. And they’re mining. And they're using electricity and stuff.
But they will switch to what’s known as Proof of Stake. And Proof of Stake is a whole different way of basically like foreseeing or incentivizing people to build the Blockchain to verify the transactions, to not like go back in time and like destroy the Blockchain.
But instead of using like electricity, it’s actually like you – it’s called “Staking.” And so instead of like having a computer somewhere running these really complex math problems. You basically stake like your hold like you know, like old school staking like you set-up your stake.
Daniel: Like going to the moon and this is America’s.
Taylor: Yeah, and so I don’t know what the exact details are with Ethereum but basically like you essentially like you’ll lock up some of your ETH for a given amount of time and like – I don’t know, people have to google it. It’s like—
Kevin: So I mean, that like at that point when they swap the Proof of Stake there are going to be a set number of ETH in existence.
Taylor: No, because Vitalik and Vlad as well, I think, they – like a little bit of inflation is a good thing. A lot of inflation is bad but a little bit of inflation is good.
Kevin: how I’m going to do it.
Daniel: The biggest take I get from out what you just said is that it’s an unfinished product that people are working to complete. Like they recognizes this isn’t just a get money scheme. If you’re going to try to a system which core is functioning for decentralization, for economic and maximum efficiency.
If you’re building an idea that’s for efficiency then you can’t leave anything out. You have to make sure that -- Okay, just because the system functions at its core we need it to function in the external world just as efficiently and just as well. like it must function at all levels otherwise then, Great, there might be more efficient system of what we have today but this one’s pollution, whatever, there’s no pollution cost, nobody pays for any pollution, someone is paying for that, the ozone is broken over Africa.
They are paying for that, you know, just like the Venezuelan government is paying for you guys and us to make our Ethereum and Bitcoin. Someone is paying for it. So if you can reduce that to the proper core function and I love that their doing it this soon. Like they're already recognizing that this is where [inaudible 01:55:50] happen so I’m – after this conversation just even more enamored with the concept.
Kevin: I mean, It’s a total swap from like, you know, like people that like you – fuck I lost my thought.
Daniel: Yeah, it happens all the time.
Brandon: I have a question, is there a limit to how much Ethereum was made. Because there’s 21 million Bitcoin.
Taylor: Right. So and you got to love, you got to love that. 21 million number. So with Ethereum currently the like rate of inflation or you know, how much Ethereum is created per block is more variable than like Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin it’s like a fix thing. So it’s just like you have a fixed block size. Everything is fixed, everything is hard coated. With Ethereum everything is more dynamic but also one of the key differences with Ethereum is that with Bitcoin you have the block reward which is just if you mine a block you get that reward.
With Ethereum you have this concept of Uncles. It’s like a really silly thing but basically even if you – if you’re like second place for mining the block, so you find the solution to this hard math problem but you’re not the first but you still find it. You’re rewarded too. So it actually distributes like things a little bit more and it incentivizes people a little bit more.
Daniel: More incentive, yeah.
Taylor: And it decentralizes everything a little bit more. But beyond that what it does is like sometimes there isn’t a second place. And so it’s hard to say like exactly what you can do all the math and you can say what the creation rate or whatever how many ETH are being created a block. But it’s an average overtime. With Proof of Stake that number is going to decrease and I don’t know if they’ve settled on like a final number yet, but I know that most people that I’ve spoken to would like it to be a low number but not zero. Meaning there’s not a final 21 million number.
And the reason for that is that it’s actually like the reason that you have inflation like inflation in itself is bad. Inflation of a 1000% is bad, but small amounts of inflation are good because if you don’t have it like it incentivizes people to spend the money, to distribute the wealth, to build things and grow things and whatever. And then it also help like there’s especially with this CryptoCurrencies, if you send to an address that doesn’t exist like that doesn’t have a private key like it’s lost forever or if you lose your private key it’s lost forever.
So having like Bitcoin, if you’re looking to like invest in something that you know, is literally like the best thing you can do with Bitcoin is hold it and not spend it. And not pay a transaction fee and that’s like crazy to think about but with that fix number that’s you know, with Ethereum that number is like low enough that it’s not going to cost the normal problems when you think of when you think about inflation.
But it also like, you know, time back to Ethereum isn’t suppose to be like a store value and a coin in the same sense that Bitcoin is. It’s suppose to be the fuel that runs the network. You know, so they're just like very different and this is like this all the theories, this why I love Ethereum. You know, like I don’t want gold. I want really awesome applications.
Daniel: So I’m going to – Do you guys have any questions. I’m going to take this a little different route and ask some questions about why you guys started my MyEtherWallet. What led you into that?
Taylor: So when Ethereum first like first started, there is only like the command line which means that you had to open up a terminal and it was like – it’s like little black cocker box and you like type in things. And that tell you with like send your ETH around. So like in order for me to send you ETH or me to send myself ETH to like a new account.
You literally have to type like send transactions, print this [inaudible 02:00:16], you first address comma, the amount of gas you’re sending comma, the amount of ETH but it’s not, so if you want to send 1 ETH it’s like this big long number, right. And I took one look at that and I was like, “No, freaking way am I ever sending any money after I just type something in that’s not even like English at all.” Like it’s not clear.
So my partner who is [inaudible 02:00:42] he is a super smart, brilliant computer guy and he was like, “Okay, well, you know, you can”— I’m like “I’m not doing this.” And he’s like, “Okay.” And I was like, “Will you build me like a button or like a box that will do it for me like I can type in how and like where I want to send it and you know, whatever.” And he is like, “Okay, sure.” And so he built that so that I could create a new wallet and send my ETH from my first wallet into like my new wallet. And then we share with people and then people used it. And right now we’re here.
Daniel: It’s like a that’s kind of the way the best products are created. They solve a problem and then you help a few people and they are like, “Oh shit, yeah, we solve everyone’s problem with that.”
Taylor: Yeah, and we never expected to be here. Like I expected, I don’t know what I expected. I didn’t expect to be here for sure though. It’s kind of mind blowing but it’s super fun. And it’s challenging and it’s like an adventure and it’s really, really fun.
Brandon: How long are you guys been around?
Taylor: So it will be – what is it, June now? – so like in two months it will exactly two years. It’s like the end of July beginning of August.
Daniel: And you guys are the biggest player in the ETH wallet space.
Taylor: Apparently we – I guess, yeah. So there’s –
Kevin: There are some that are trying. There are some that are functionally like they work as easily and is functionally as much of the time.
Taylor: Yeah, so the wallet provide – like the wallets and just like to back-up so people can understand this. Your ETH is on the Blockchain. Your wallet is what you use to like access that ETH and send it and spend it and see it and all of that kind of stuff. So we are a wallet. Meaning that we provide an interface for you to do whatever you want with the Blockchain. Otherwise, you’re like looking at code and you don’t want to do that.
Kevin: So if I was a Joe Schmo to make a transaction or to hold their money for transaction.
Taylor: You can generate like you can generate a new wallet, you can see you balance, you can send your ETH or your tokens. What else we have? Oh, so the ENS is the new things, so the ENS is like the name service so you can actually instead of typing in the like 32 or whatever 40 character addresses the OX756EB like that big long string. You can register a name. You can buy a name like Taylor, right. And that -- well then just like a URL is. You can send your money there.
Kevin: And it’s awesome this is how I actually find my address now in EtherScan I just look up my name.
Taylor: So you can do that on our site too. So you can go buy a name that will be link to your address.
Daniel: Do you see, there’s like this bubble online where you can see who are the biggest owners are of different ETH. Is that through your guys wallet or is that just something that’s –
Kevin: Is that not EtherScan?
Taylor: That’s what EtherScan. That’s Matt at EtherScan. He is the creator of that site. That’s like the sort of the Blockchain.info for Ethereum. So you can see the Blockchain. You can see basically everything.
Kevin: Only company that did their fund raising the right way.
Taylor: Yeah, they didn’t do a token sale. They worked their asses off and did an incubator through Boost VC, I think. Yeah, yeah.
Daniel: Do you guys have any plans for scale? You guys are company, do you guys have plans for scale.
Kevin: We’re working on it.
Daniel: You know, but obviously we talked about earlier about the customer service exponential growth.
Taylor: Our current situation is like the scale is just like more like spending more hours on it a day which means like less even less sleep. So basically our plan is – Okay, so we hired 4 new developers. I’ve got myself there like I don’t even know his name is Jordan he is freaking awesome and he saved my butt already. He is like helping out with support but he is like I think he is going to basically be like our CMO. [inaudible 02:05:03] I feel like [inaudible 02:05:06].
Daniel: Is this your offer?
Taylor: No I’m just saying like he is just a jack of all trades. And I need -- he is going to basically be the one that helps out with all of that. And then we’re going to go ahead and get the support team. And then the infrastructure side of things actually we scaled up last year so that was cool like we don’t have to deal with that. Basically we have the – we have like the same sort of system as that Netflix is, so like people can sign all they want and we don’t go down.
And then for money – monetization if you're on our site you can swap between like Bitcoin and Ethereum and we get a small cut of that. That's through bidding right now. We're going to set up probably like an on boarding buy widget with Coinbase coming soon. And we're going to affiliate few with that. We might do a like a sub domain system that could be super cool and make it even easier to buy and register like a name that would be like basically through us.
Because right now the ENS is like this auction system, which is really, really, cool. And like we could spend a whole episode on the ENS. It takes a couple of days and like I think that people probably just want a name. So we could offer that.
Daniel: I think that this technology and your guys wallet is incredible and do you have any further questions or anything and if you guys have anything else you wanted to talk about specifically?
Taylor: I have no idea anymore.
Brandon: No that's what we're saving them so we're going to bring them back on again. That's why we cap at that. We spent too much on Coinbase [inaudible 02:06:43] and then we're [inaudible 02:06:44]
Taylor: We can keep going.
Daniel: It will be all time high.
Taylor: We should do another one on the ENS though because that is like a whole -- the ENS is the Ethereum Name Service. And is basically like the DNS which means that like the entire -- like the entire reason you can type in google.com and end up on google is the DNS. We're going to do the same thing with Ethereum -- with the ENS.
Kevin: I gone to like Ether --
Taylor: No, that's it. I'm done.
Kevin: When I type in my last name and then I literally can open my wallet from my last name and I still like I use to look up my address in weird ways because I like [inaudible 02:07:23] sort of what my address was but now I can literally just look at my last name. It's like "Oh, dude this name is attached to this address." I'm like "Okay" I just send my info in that address like cool.
Daniel: It's like this divide between the different types of technology and for trading and for utility.
Kevin: And that's the speculative version of real value.
Daniel: Well you do -- if it's going to be a currency then you need the market value of the coin and you -- in order for that to keep having value you need the utility behind it so it's just knowing that both are working at the same time. That there are people developing both.
Taylor: It's harder than you would think, yeah, you're right.
Daniel: It makes me excited. Look, I'm glad I'm not coding any of this. I'm glad I didn't learn how to code because I know that I'd be knuckle deep on my computer every single day trying to figure out some new way to take over the world.
Brandon: And solve more equations. So we get more ETH coming to me.
Daniel: Yeah, I would be obsessed with algorithm if you give me the opportunity so I'm glad I don't know.
Kevin: Like just building a miner like you can get so deep into like the hardware like that's before you even plug it in and set it up to mine for you.
Daniel: It's funny because my friend approached me, my business partner from -- I was 23 or 24 at that time. My business partner, he is like "Let's quit our company." This is like four months into our company. He's like "Let's quit our company. We'll kick everyone out and let's use this space." And we got super lucky to have this huge space. "Use this space and let's start a Bitcoin mining operation." He said, "let's do that." He told me that. This is when I was 23 years old.
Taylor: You wouldn't be here right now.
Daniel: I would not be here right now. Completely worst mistake ever not doing that. But we thought at that time our conversation ended up, I think, in the realm of saying, "It's too late." Like it's too late to be miners. And it turns out it wasn't too late to be miners.
Taylor: Yeah, exactly. And that's -- I mean, it's -- this is the thing because this is another question that people ask me all the time, is it too late to invest in Ethereum? Is it too late to do this? Is it too late to do this? Like no. Like we're talking about like when if you go look back at this period of time we're in right now.
Brandon: Beeper stage.
Taylor: We are like pre-beeper stage. We're like we're trying to build the beepers. So, you know, it's basically like just do it. Whatever skills you have, you know, whatever skills you have, whatever your passion is like there is something in this space that like needs your insights or feedback on or your skills or whatever.
And I'm not like I'm so serious about this like everyone of these projects gets better with a more diverse audience with a more diverse user base and like I'm talking about like we're -- when we talk about diversity like everyone is needed.
Daniel: Yeah, I mean, you can't -- not that you can't but just having the smartest intelligent people working on this, they're going to view it from their perspective. How would I want this to function? And in reality that sends a lot of companies and crushes them because they don't know what the average person wants. They don't know what the regular Joe Schmo wants. So the more people we get acclimated to it, you know, the better it's going to be.
Taylor: Yeah, exactly. And I mean that's the -- when we talk about Indian stuff like I'm sitting here like "Oh maybe I shouldn't like how would people in India be able to access our site like I don't know" That's probably about like think.
Daniel: That's something to think about. MyEtherWallet goes to India round 2.
Kevin: Now that it's a thing -- India, Korea and Japan.
Daniel: All right that's the title of the show MyEtherWallet goes to India that will be the next show.
Taylor: Episode 2.
Daniel: Do you guys want to plug yourselves. That's a complete you can say no on that if you'd like.
Taylor: Why should I plug?
Brandon: Where people can find you. Whether it's personal email.
Daniel: You could say Twitter, and your company at the very list.
Taylor: So I would say just go to MyEtherWallet.com in the footer there's like a whole bunch of links. We got the links to Twitter and Facebook and Slack and there's an email address for me. If you want to just like email me and give me like a shoutout. That's email@example.com. If you need help though, don't email that one because she won't help you. The support -- firstname.lastname@example.org. We now have three people like answering that inbox so it's better. I'm one of those people but --
Brandon: Hell of a support team.
Kevin: It's a hell of a support team.
Taylor: It's growing. We're trying.
Kevin: He is one of them.
Daniel: Not good.
Kevin: It's not good.
Taylor: It's been a crazy ride but we'll get there.
Daniel: email me at email@example.com. I'll be the new support member.
Taylor: You have access at our conversations.
Brandon: This was a trial to see if we can be on there. Support team did we pass? Are we in?
Taylor: Anyone is in at this point.
Kevin: Answer supporting those.
Daniel: I figured.
Taylor: We're not picky at all.
Kevin: If that's something you want to do. [inaudible 02:12:28] better than you like that's --
Brandon: Thank you guys so much for taking the time this Saturday being the first people come on the show on the road with us. It was great.
Taylor: Oh that's what this one is called you guys go to LA.
Taylor: Not MyEtherWallet goes to India. This is your road trip.
Daniel: We're from Miami.
Brandon: We're doing a few episodes out here but thank you guys again. We're tuning out. Cheers. Have a great rest of your day.
Taylor: Thank you.