Wil Brown @themadscientist, is the architect behind Иeureal: the first protocol designed to produce a predictive artificial intelligence (AI) architecture for cryptocurrency. He is a Bitcoin activist, Virtual Reality enthusiast, and futurist.
Outside of developing the first technology to fuse AI and blockchain technology, Wil has been working as a software engineer for over 20 years. He developed the Mozaex Media Server, which has a market value of over 30 million dollars. He is the organizer of the 400+ member Utah Bitcoin Community meetup, won the top prize at the Million Dollar Texas Bitcoin Conference hackathon, and has been involved in several bitcoin startup projects.
He also considers himself an old-school cyberpunk and hopes to eventually merge his consciousness directly with machines. He is currently in the funding phase of a documentary in which he will live completely in Virtual Reality for thirty days.
“You want the technology that’s learning from you to grow with you in order to make your life easier.”
Together, we look into futurism and the potential of humans fusing with technology. Wil believes we will grow interdependently into a completely new form of consciousness that has never existed before. This episode takes a deeper dive into virtual reality, making data accessible, information control, and Artificial Intelligence’s potential to predict the future and change the world.
Brandon: Oh, hold on. This is great. I want to jump right into it, right where you were saying. What we’re talking about? We're talking about longevity and how you want to use that and -- which means you're going to use that by. Is it to prevent your death? Is it to extend your life? But it goes through a conversation we've had even before we got on the air, is we talked about making a -- what's the A in AR?
Wil Brown: Augmented.
Brandon: Augmented. Are going to make augmentations to that? Because if you're going to do that, I mean, you're boosting the longevity. But predicting the future when it comes to something like your death. Isn’t that be something completely different?
Wil Brown: No, I think the same thing. So it's just about the data use and the purpose. So what you choose is purpose. So it's the same thing as far as the predictive underlying machine or benefit or device or whatever. But the purpose, even though they're a bit different. So if I'm going to be augmenting my consciousness, I'm not so concerned about extending my life organically.
I'm not as concerned about that. I haven't thought about. It's not really the world I live in. There are other people like Aubrey de Grey or whatever, that's he's goal and stuff. So, I can't bite off everything. I've got to stick with what I'm really good at, which is the tech side and the actual tech-tech, what we think of as tech. Not biological tech, but more like computer tech. Yeah, some computer science.
Brandon: It’s a good way segue you on the bus. Welcome on the bus! Wil Brown, a.k.a. The Mad Scientist, co-founder of Иeureal which is artificial intelligence combined with VR CryptoCurrency. Am I getting that right?
Wil Brown: Yeah, you've got it.
Brandon: All right. How long has that been going? How far deep in the process are you guys?
Wil Brown: We're about three years in.
Brandon: Three years in?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: Where is that in terms of someone looking in? What's three years in developing an artificial intelligence/virtual reality CryptoCurrency?
Wil Brown: I'm trying to explain it to people. Yeah, I'm talking about early adopters. So, we designed and architected it three years ago and it's way ahead of its time. And it's been the last three years of just refining it and trying to explain it to the people, bring people into the understanding of it, whatever.
Brandon: Yeah. Again, your company is called "Иeureal". Am I getting that right?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: You just hired a new CEO. You've got your white papers out. You have a prototype just coming out or it's already out, it's ready to download, ready to test for anybody looking to test it out there. How successful are the testings been going?
Wil Brown: We actually created it three years ago or two and a half years ago. We designed it then. So it's been around for awhile. It's not really usable but it kind of shows people the concepts and had some interesting things on there. It's not usable for the product but it's a proof of concept more than anything.
Brandon: Is there something that's more of the three, the three terms I coined as a -- is more artificial intelligence, more virtual reality, more CryptoCurrency? Which one would you say leans towards more?
Wil Brown: More Crypto and AI, not the VR. So it doesn’t include VR, the prototype at all.
Brandon: Okay. A whole different space, literally and figuratively?
Wil Brown: Yes, yes, yes.
Brandon: I got you, I got you.
Wil Brown: But we definitely plan to bring that in at some point down the line. So right now, we're focusing on the AI and the CryptoCurrency side, and then we're going to bring in the VR just as a way to interface to the system that's created. So that's kind of the first step, bring VR in.
Daniel: What led you into needing to solve this data problem, the data science problem behind it?
Wil Brown: It was kind of weird. It actually started out with the desire to solve the Bitcoin problem of using so much electricity and for the compute. For an actual purpose that's been official, not just -- I mean, other than securing the Blockchain, right? So that's where it started. So, I was like, "Well, what can I do?" And then I've been dabbling in the AI stuff and I figured out this -- I had this insight of like prediction because it fit the criteria for like a proof of work of proof-of-stake system and that it was hard to do at first but then easy to check.
And so, prediction is like that. In general, it's hard to predict the future but it's easy to check that you've made a correct prediction once the event happens. And so that key thing is the reason I picked it up in the first place. And then everything kind of fell into place after that as far as the architecture and everything. And then it's still viable today and like the whole thing I thought of three years ago was still viable.
Brandon: All right. And you said it's been three years. What's next step down the line for Иeureal? I mean, where is it going to go? I know we've been talking about, is it a currency yet? What makes something like this artificial intelligence that you developed a proof-of-stake, you have the prototype, everything testable and ready, and how does it move from where it is now to an actual currency, CryptoCurrency [unclear 0:05:50] .
Wil Brown: Yeah. So it needs to be released, which means that it goes through kind of a trial by fire period and a development period. And we grow the community to a large spill and a lot of people get involved. And we tested out and we make sure that it's viable or change it if it's not. And then eventually, down the road, you get to a point where you've done it like a used case. It's actually out there with an MVP, minimum viable product and it's useful. And then you can release it to the public for use.
So we're going to be doing all of that kind of, I'd say in-house but that's not a really good way to say it. It's more like a private decentralized kind of thing, is the way we're looking at it, which means that we set up our own kind of private Blockchains and we do testing and stuff like that and we try to get it to do something. So what we're planning with that, we're going to try to predict the CryptoCurrency prices actually is what we're going to do for that.
Brandon: And you would do the response, is that correct?
Daniel: That's going to be the first usage predicting the CryptoCurrency prices?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: So, in the beginning, I'm assuming the datasets are smaller, and then as you continue to utilize it -- I mean, also the users are smaller, right?
Wil Brown: Yes.
Daniel: So the predictors, the predicting technology, there's not that much going on. So in the beginning, the numbers are worst and then as you use it more and more. So, does it mean beta testing is super important to adding in data or is that something that you guys do beta testing?
Wil Brown: Yeah. Adding different sources of data, we'll be trying out a bunch of different things to see. I mean, it's a hard problem to solve predicting -- CryptoCurrency prices, it's a really hard problem and yet the actual setup for it is pretty simple because you're just dealing with a very small amount of data, the prices coming in. And so, there's a small amount of data. So that's technically easier to implement, it's just harder to solve and because it's really hard to solve, we're going to be competing against a lot of people. And if we do well in that competition, it will be a proof to the platform.
Daniel: How do you feel about anyone who believes that potentially data shouldn't be free? You're making data basically more accessible and predictions much easier to make and allowing to compile different people's predictions of data as opposed to keeping it private or people kind of stack, piling their data and using it for whatever sources they want. So what about the naysayers kind of -- is what I'm thinking the people who are going to say, "Oh, the data shouldn't be free, data shouldn't be Blockchain." What do you think about those types of people?
Wil Brown: Definitely, that's a huge thing and that's very important. I don’t think we're taking the -- particularly the stance that data should be just all free and open. I mean, we're not taking that stance. I think that if people put it open and it is open, I think there's a benefit for that, then people will do it and I think that will happen. But right now, 95% or 85% of all the data in the world is not even on the cloud, right?
Wil Brown: So there's this massive amount of -- all, pretty much all of the data.
Daniel: It’s was stored in…?
Wil Brown: On personal computer, your computer, like on personal files. You just don’t put it up in the cloud, but there's this massive amount. And the reason why is because you're not comfortable giving that up. So when you run in some sort of program, so you're kind of stuck in the case of, the only compute that you can get value from is what you can run on the device you have. So if you have a laptop with a really small chip that has no processing, you're very limited in what you can do with the data you have on your laptop that's not in the cloud or whatever. So what we're doing is we're trying to offer a solution for that because that's really where all the data is in the world.
Brandon: Yeah, I think people always collect data. All these companies collect data and they eventually use it for sales in the end, or they sell it to other companies once they have it. I think the most popular one is Google, I think it was Google Earth. So whenever they ask or somebody was using the software in order to -- you get those signs to make sure you're not a bot and it will have like recognition of a street corner. And it's like, "Okay, click every part of the picture that's not a sign." And then okay, you do not. “Which one is not a car?" And they were using that for Google Earth to finish it.
But apparently, they've already got all the image they'll ever going to need to piece together for the satellites, so now they're moving on to other things and it's trying to -- trying hard because they're using it to collect data. And then okay, it's going to go to something more beneficial, people will see where they're going and navigates because everybody uses Google Maps or navigation system.
Daniel: And they're already utilizing everyday people to fund their own data. Google is decentralizing how they -- I won't say decentralizing. Google is crowdsourcing how they get their data but yet they're storing it for themselves, right? So, it seems like the next step is, okay, if you're going to crowdsource, everyone should have access to it, or it should be crowdsourced plus everyone should have access to it.
Wil Brown: Right. That's a key part of our platform for sure. It's great for that. It's great for these kinds of things that everyone can benefit. I called the public good stuff, like public good things. Like it’s for predicting the weather, everybody wants weather predicted, things like that. Public good, it's great to have all these data that's been beneficial, that's open then everybody can have access to.
Governments, here in Utah, we have like an open data portal website where the government collects all these like public data and gives it available for free but to solve these kinds of problems. And it's all great. But there's a massive amount of data that people just don’t want to give up and it's still out there. You may do these signs and give up these data --
Brandon: It's only a small piece. I think we've talked about this how much easier and how much better certain technologies can make your life. It can benefit your everyday usage of anything or whatever it is you're going to do, it's something that's going to -- for example, with your technology, you want the AI or the other technology that's learning from you to grow with you in order to make your life easier. Is that something -- but I think there's the correlation of privacy and your people, they want to have privacy.
Like you said they don’t want to give up this information; they're scared to give up these information because they're sacred of what, not just machines are going to do or technology but other humans are going to do with it. However, they're looking at the pessimistic sides and the positive side of this thing is there to be there with them. It's there to make, enhance their situation and they're like, that's why it was developed in the first place.
But to also paint a better picture of what the decentralization of the AI is, you look at, who is it, Elon Musk, Google, Facebook, they obviously have different artificial intelligence but they're not decentralizing the way that they possessing them. I think there's something that your technology and your currency is going to be able to do. It's going to be for the individual completely decentralized for them to use and for them to access.
Wil Brown: Yes, 100%. So, that's a really good point. So that's huge because right now, Google or whatever, they have control of that information. When you put it up in the cloud, they control it. And the proof that people don't want it is that 85% thing, because there's still 85% of data that's not there, the people don’t want to put there. And so that's the proof that they don't want to do it. And the way we're going to do it is there are all these other systems out there that are tackling up problem. And so, what we'll end up doing is just using a decentralized data store and interacting with it. You know, CryptoCurrency world, it's like all boats. What's the thing?
Daniel: Boats and hoes?
Wil Brown: I don’t know.
Daniel: It was a joke people.
Wil Brown: Yeah. But anyway, so everybody, anything that happens in Crypto world benefits everyone else. Even though there's competition for like a branding --
Daniel: It raises the floor.
Wil Brown: -- it raises the floor for everyone. And so, we' don’t want to particularly compete with STORJ and MaidSafe and all these other platforms that are doing data, protection and data storage. So we'll interact with them. And because we put that into our system, then that's where that protection comes from and that capability, right?
Brandon: Well, again, it's privacy and people are afraid. They think that having that little four, six digit combination on their phone or on their computer is something that's going to prevent someone from getting into. So, you're much more of a tech savvy than both of us are, how much information can companies, people on the web, they want to find out something about you, they already or going to know about that.
And it seems like, it seems to be the problem with a lot of our institution, there’s a sign of institutions is that there is so much more diminishing privacy going on out there. We're going to know what's happening in your life, whether it happens so long ago or it's happening now, and we have these different images of ways our society should be run, organized, especially the politics.
"Okay, oh, you slept with this prostitute? We found your text records or your email…" Someone is going to find that out even more. It's like, why are you so worried? We can have an honest individual conversation or put people in place to properly facilitate all of our different laws, rules and order because they're the ones that are neglecting what's happening and going on. So what is it that should be people be worried or is their information all out there already?
Wil Brown: Yeah. So, we're going to have to protect ourselves. But luckily, I mean, unless you're the NSA, there are different levels of how much you can get, right?
Wil Brown: And so, if you take all the information, there's a massive amount of information that you produce constantly. Just like how you move, what you're doing -- not just like online information that -- with someone.
Daniel: Where, yeah.
Wil Brown: Like every place you go, everything you do, what you drink here, how you move, like whether your upset at one moment or happy the next, there's so much, like you're constantly producing massive amounts of information. What I'm worried about is down the road when --
Daniel: We're all like used to it.
Wil Brown: -- well, when there are people out there who are getting that, all of that. So imagine the NSA, and they have access to all of that, all of it. They know every little piece of everything you're doing all the time. And they're predicting what you're going to next with that and they can do that. There's a fine line between prediction and influence. That's what I'm scared of down the road. I mean, what's happening now to me is nothing compared to what the future holds.
Daniel: I just see a period of time like 300 years from now though that the AI is so good at predicting anything that we do.
Wil Brown: Nobody is going to be 300 years.
Daniel: Well, I'm talking about way in the future. One of the questions I have, and this might be is in the side, is does that mean if something can predict, your technology might be able to say like, with certain accuracy that I want to engage in X activity and I'm going to do this tomorrow and it knows everything that I want to do, do I have a free will if something can predict everything that I have?
Wil Brown: Yeah. So, if it knows you're going to do this and then it has a way to influence you to change something about the world or about you, then it starts to take control of you. Do you want Elon Musk to have that power over you?
Brandon: Oh, hold on. You believe in free will?
Daniel: No, I don’t believe in free will.
Brandon: Oh, okay. I got nervous.
Brandon: Yeah, I don’t believe in -- it doesn’t exist, especially when you create a perfect situation when someone can have the ability to have all these knowledge, information about you, and if that already had the potential of existing at one point, then maybe already existed before, it was already created. So listen, if you believe in free will and you're listening to this, stop. Just stop, get over it. Get over yourself, get over it. It's not real.
Daniel: But it raises a question for what you're describing for -- we'll put the NSA to decide and say, if something can predict something so well and then it forces me in that direction, is that a prediction and it knew what I wanted or does all the things that created around my life just push me into that direction, right? So that's kind of the question that arises for me is, do we become a slave to the technology if it's able to predict to a such great accuracy the things that we want and we're not making like our own decisions anymore? Does that make sense?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: Almost sounds like a time travel thing, like it's skipping off the alternate timelines and something knows you -- if it didn't exists before, it's pushing you toward something that maybe you would’ve naturally, organically like gone towards yourself and veers you off in a different direction, especially if multiple universes and Multiverses exist.
Daniel: It's like the funnels that we were talking about yesterday, right?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: We're talking about these funnels. So when you to purchase something on, let's say, Amazon and you purchased -- we'll use Instagram as an example. So let's say I'm on Instagram and I have my friends that I'm constantly scrolling their feed and it understands, the AI understand that these are people I'm interested in, this is the type of thing I'm interested in and it's going to show those feeds first and foremost as I scroll through. It does the same thing with Instagram stories.
However, they have this new -- I call it, that's a funnel. Like that's us stuck in a vortex of things that -- it knows we're interested in, it keeps giving us more and more of. But every once in awhile it gives us a peak of that side portal of the portal on the side maybe this friend I haven't talked to in a long time or maybe a sponsored ad of shoes that I haven't bought shoes in a while and it wants to give me a peak and maybe I can suck that into my vortex, right?
Brandon: Yeah, those suggested friends box is like one example of that, too. So maybe you have this friend. We have 50 friends in common or maybe it's somebody you haven't seen in awhile and they just slide there. Because you pointed this out to me yesterday, it's something opening my eyes, too.
Daniel: So, about the NSA, that is definitely scary that the NSA has all that data on us. And what if I'm constantly looking at some strange beast reality porn or something that that is -- and like that's my tunnel and the tunnel gets stronger because it keeps funneling me that tunnel and all I'm getting is more odd things that it keeps feeding me, and then the side tunnel is other odd things, I might be interested in.
And now the NSA is compiling data they might not been interested in in the first place. They might be predicting my behavior and say, "Oh, this person has a 12% chance of doing something wrong, we need to put them in jail." I, as a futurist person, strongly believe that they're going to make predictions of our human biology when it's strong enough, like wearables let's say -- do you believe in wearables?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: So medical wearables that might say, "Oh, I'm missing some part of my neo frontal cortex that makes me 60% susceptible to raping someone." And so they might make that prediction and put us in jail for some specific reason. Do you think that that predictive technology is somewhat scary or do you think that's super helpful, they want to put --? There's the good and the evil of it, right? Do you see both sides of those things? Is that something that intrigues you when you look at the technology like this?
Wil Brown: Well, to me, I mean the good and the evil only exist in us, the real good and evil, like in humans. And so, there's not this like --
It's not set in stone what that means particularly. So I think that we all have our ideas and everything. And so as long as we're as human beings involved in that story or in that process, like all of us, not just a few, I think we'll figure it out and we'll get to the right place. I mean, we already kind of do in general. I mean, today, what do we do? If somebody does something, we're like, "Okay, this person might have some problems in the future, so let's get some self help." I recognize that about myself. If I screw up somewhere and do some crazy thing, then I'm like, "Well, I better look at what I'm doing and try to fix myself." Right?
Daniel: Mm-hm. True, yeah.
Brandon: Well, are you referring to more of like -- I think it was probably in a Sam Harris podcast when the gentleman who was like a marksman, he was a shooter and then in his like final note, he said, "Listen, I have something wrong with my brain, whether it was like some kind of tumor that was --"
Daniel: Sapolsky who was looking at -- this is a Radiolab where the guy he, not to beat a dead horse because this is one of my favorite things to talk about, but he had this surgery on his brain and he came home. During the daytime, he went to work, no problems. At night, he would go home and watch porn, child porn, rape porn, any kind of bad porn you can think of. And the judge decided that, and this isn't going to tie in everything we're talking about I guess, but the judge decided that, "Well, even though you had this problem that clearly created you an issue, which was that surgery in your brain was making him do these things, but at work you were able to control yourself. So because you can control yourself at work, that means you could have controlled yourself at night, so you're not liable." And the argument goes, -- so they put them in jail. And he actually was like, "Yeah, I should be put in jail." He couldn’t withdraw himself, right?
The argument goes from Robert Sapolsky neuroscientist, is that that's silly. He should not be in jail. You could have predicted his behavior. He basically said that there are drivers in us. And one of those drivers took control during the day and one took control at night. At night, he was low in Cortisol or whatever. I'm used to making stuff, it’s probably low in Cortisol. But he's low in Cortisol and he's alone. In a day, he's surrounded by other people. Fear over fear beats, right? Fear wings over his impulsive behavior.
I can say the same thing about picking my face. I pick my face and in certain situations I can't control it and others I can. To me, it's blatantly obvious that he's not liable. To Robert Sapolsky, he also says the same thing in his quote that I absolutely love and it's, "Free will is just a biology we haven't discovered yet." Right?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: So, you pulled me in on a tangent --
Brandon: But there's another one. There's another marksman. It's exactly the same case and it's like -- because my most fascinating one is pedophilia. Pedophilia is something that’s always-- we have written record of it having from ancient Greece to Rome, older men having sex with younger boys. Right now, it's like, "Do we have something to actually treat this disorder?" And we can see that's like a very disgusting and like something were pushing way out. We want to say it's something we even do like in an animalistic level is social ostracisation. I don’t think we have a good job with that any other form but we do it on a biological level for things we don’t like.
And it's like, is it actually a mental disorder? Is it something that we can actually look in and prevent or keep these people away? How is it that we're going to tackle and deal with the situation like this? This is not something that's going away. It's like, "Okay, you're just the worse person in the world, you're disgusting, you're deformity, you're not normal and we're going to put you in a metal box and a cage where people do terrible things to you if that's what you are in jail for." That’s how we deal with our society right there.
Wil Brown: Yeah. I mean, to me, we've been struggling with this stuff forever. I mean these kinds of things. I mean good and evil has been a thread throughout all of history, of human history.
Brandon: I thank Joseph Campbell for the one.
Wil Brown: Yeah. So, to me, I think really what's happening is we're going into a new kind of world with different tools available to us, to do it in different ways, to deal with it in different ways. One example is VR itself. And so, VR adds this tool where you can explore those things in a space that is safe from the reality side and you can utilize that and leverage that to deal with these problems in a different way than we've been able to before.
Daniel: So you think that there's a therapeutic value almost in VR?
Wil Brown: There is, yeah.
Brandon: Absolutely therapeutic. I was going to say even like a place for experimentation. It's like the number one place to experiment something you test something out. Because like you said, the safest place we're taking out the human factor, I mean, you've got emotional and psychological. I don’t know if people they can't deal this world and we -- they're going still -- some of them need some counseling while they're going in there, some kind of coaching when they go and they experience something like that. But it's like -- I mean we talked about it, let me say with certain, if you're call them narcotics or psychedelics, just the level they bring you to.
For example, the MDMA bringing you down to this balance neutral level where they're using it for post-traumatic stress right now is like 83% effective rate. But healing somebody is like getting them to that level where they can actually talk to the psychologist of what is going on, what's wrong, what's happening. And now we can cancel out all that negative noise that's negatively impacting this person, and then using that -- instead of using MDMA now, it's like, "Okay, we'll plug you into the VR space but here’s your psychologist, your coach right now. We're going to go through that exact situation you had in school, traumatized you. Let's deal with that now. Let's see if we can make something better at that."
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: There you go.
Wil Brown: Yeah. We used to have a shotgun and we would shoot the problem with a shotgun.
Brandon: You're just spraying everything.
Wil Brown: Just spraying everything. It's like -- right? I remember [unclear 0:29:18] or something. But now, with this new tech, it's like it's given us a sharpshooter.
Brandon: We can snipe it rather than spray.
Wil Brown: We can snipe it, yeah.
Daniel: So what's your involvement with VR exactly?
Wil Brown: I picked it up. A friend of mine showed it to me a couple of years ago for the first time and I was blank, holy shit! This is the -- excuse my French there.
Brandon: No, we're explicit.
Wil Brown: Oh, okay. Anyway, he showed me this and I was like, "This is what we were dreaming of when we were kids." Right? So I just totally --
Brandon: Which one was it Oculus or was it --?
Wil Brown: It was the first Oculus, DK2.
Wil Brown: Or not the first but the DK2.
Brandon: Is that the one with the mats, the floors that move until we can walk?
Wil Brown: No.
Brandon: Or is it like a ramp up and down, because people get the motion sickness if they're not moving.
Wil Brown: No. It was just a regular headset, that is hook to the computer. Just like the current Oculus but it was the first. It was the first generation that where they got and you put it on a Kickstarter. And then Facebook bought them for $2 billion, knocked that deal.
Daniel: Yeah, it's an incredible space. Have you got to try out any glasses that most people haven’t and tried out? Have you got an access to anything?
Wil Brown: I had a HoloLens. I bought one.
Daniel: That's augmented, right?
Wil Brown: Yeah. So I had an augmented reality set up for awhile.
Daniel: Did you do any workspace on that? The video is super cool where it's in a room and all of a sudden you're an architect and there is your bridge right in front of you and you were able to like build in. Did you do anything like that with that?
Wil Brown: Yeah. It is still rudimentary and Microsoft is not the best at UI.
Brandon: Do you still have it? You said you bought one or --?
Wil Brown: I had one.
Brandon: You sold it?
Wil Brown: Well, I ended up selling it because the guy at the Microsoft store broke the strap on it, so anyway. I loaned it to the guys at the Microsoft --
Brandon: Got you, got you.
Daniel: What is it to you is the most appealing thing about VR? What is the one thing that you're still most interested in it?
Wil Brown: It's transporting into another world, is really the thing. I mean teleporting into another world.
Daniel: What is it about that other world that intrigues you so much?
Wil Brown: Just the other world. I've grown up by group of science fiction. I read all the time, science fiction, fantasy. I spent most of life in a virtual space in general and all the different forms. And so, I just want to live there. I mean I plan to live there. It's where I want to go. It's where I feel the most at home. And that just makes it more. VR makes it more real.
Daniel: The Paraspace.
Wil Brown: Yeah. Well, Paraspace is just the -- if you take VR the Multiverse, Metaverse, so the normal term is Metaverse, right? So the Metaverse is all of the alternate dimensions or all of the virtual spaces that can exist inside the chips and everything that you were talking about earlier. So that's the Metaverse, right? Paraspace is the name from some science fiction by -- I can't remember who. Anyway, --
Brandon: What book are we talking?
Wil Brown: What's that?
Brandon: What book are you talking about?
Wil Brown: I can't remember the name of the book, but there's Clifford D. Simak I think or somebody. Anyway, he first coined the term in the science fiction. Paraspace, it's the real world, the version of the real world copied into the Metaverse. So what that does is it makes -- so like this room we're in, would be mapped in the Metaverse. And so, if you're going to the Metaverse, you can actually come into this room, right? And if it's live streamed from the real world, just like we're live streaming this show, then you can visit it in VR. You can visit this actual space in VR. So the idea is, if all three of us have augmented reality glasses on, when we put those on, I could be in another room, in another place in the world and I could come into this room and you guys could see me.
Well, if you guys had glasses on. I could come into the space in VR and you guys could see me with your augmented reality glasses in that space. So I would be like a ghost. It's the combination between the real world and the virtual world. That's what the Paraspace is. Does that make sense?
Brandon: Yeah. I was about to say, the difference of AR and VR, how would you describe that? Are there any way that an AR space and a VR space can merge? Because running a thing augmented, I'm thinking you said put the glasses on and I can shape everything that's in this world that I'm in right now. I can add and throw in things and like you said, jump through different place of what I'm seeing and viewing. However, what is the main difference between AR and VR because I don’t think I understand the exact differences of the two? Is it one different space to something you can alter in a current space?
Wil Brown: So, physically, AR is a master set of VR. So you can take the best AR devices and turn them into VR devices. Does that make sense?
Brandon: Yeah. Keep going, keep going.
Wil Brown: All you have to do if you have an AR device on, all you have to do is include the real world. Just turn off the real world and it becomes VR.
Daniel: So the Paraspace or the Metaspace that you're talking about is the organic version of that, the fully organic version of that? Am I understanding that properly?
Wil Brown: It's more like the live streamed -- the real world. We can call it the real world but it's all real, right?
Wil Brown: The "real world" with quotes --
Daniel: We're not in that.
Brandon: Listen, it's all natural --
Daniel: Everything you're describing, we're just in an advanced version somewhere plugged in. We're already in that space right now and so organic, we can't even tell. In fact, the only thing that's missing is, if we are in that space, the problem is that I don’t know, because if I knew, then I could do things like lift this microphone up with my hands and then I have superpowers, but they just haven't given that to us because it's --
Brandon: You and me, we haven't tapped into it. We haven't tapped into it yet.
Daniel: Well, the physics in this universe aren't that good, but in other universes they're great.
Brandon: Oh, but it's maybe those people they haven't either developed the mathematics yet and plug you in with those mathematics, with those physical problems and say, "Oh, okay, now it made sense. [unclear 0:35:55] are climbing on the ceilings right now because oh, they gave me the fourth law, the fifth law, sixth law. Okay, now everything makes sense. Now, all those things I couldn't think were possible are possible."
Wil Brown: Yeah, that's possible, yeah.
Daniel: I just imagine like we're in a decentralized universe where they -- like you're trying -- they already wrote -- what do you call the code in the beginning? The protocol. They already wrote the protocol for this universe. And so, if they wanted to add a new physics, they'd have to fork it and we'd have to fork all --
Wil Brown: Right, and that's a black hole, right?
Daniel: Yeah, that's a black hole. We have to fork off before -- and listen, my vote is in, I don’t want to fork off.
Wil Brown: No fork?
Daniel: I just wanted to be -- I just wanted to see --
Wil Brown: I try not to give too many forks.
Daniel: Well, I like knives so cut me out of this universe into another.
Brandon: It seems like everything that we're talking about and everything that -- it's stuff we care about. I think Daniel I talk about this all the time. This is the stuff that we think matters or stuff that was like pressing you.
Daniel: Yeah, definitely.
Brandon: It's like, oh man, this is stuff, it's not just going to -- that excites us, stuff to enhance everybody, not just to make my thing, but my life better, my world better. Is this something that it's tangible and everybody can use. It's not just the idea anymore like, "Well, this technology is coming in fruition." And I don’t want to say it, but I'm going to say it anyways, like the people that get it and then are some people that just don’t get it and it's -- we don’t call them backwards.
It's just they really believe in old institutions. And old institutions whether it's politics, for example. This is the way things have to get done. This is the way that it's going to get done and jumping way over that not being reliant in other people. So when you look at other people, people outside your space. I know you said you're in Utah, for example. But you go to San Francisco, it's like I can go to a meet up, then I'm like having conversations, communicating all these people. So, what do you look at if you do see these things happening and going on? Do you see like it's a person that doesn’t get it or where is the education for them to jump from where they're going, where they're from?
Wil Brown: I kind of give up. I'm really an anarchist.
Brandon: I couldn’t sell you, damn it.
Wil Brown: Yeah. I mean, it's not like I look down at them or something. I really at my core, I've found out that my purpose, my main purpose of my life is to help other people out. And so when I look at people that don’t actually see it, like you're talking about, what I want to do, my immediate response to that is, what can I actually do? What can I actually do to give them the benefit of what I can create, right?
Wil Brown: I don’t know. If you believe in people having guns or whatever or defending themselves, not even guns, but people having self-defense or whatever, like people down in Texas or whatever, everybody wants to -- everybody has his gun or something, I don’t know, but that kind of deal, right? I'm more about trying to figure out ways that I can create something that they can use, that can benefit their life.
So that's where I always go to. What can I do? What can I do to make it so that they -- if they can't, I can't, right? If there's nothing I can do to provide them anything that works for them or helps them, that's okay too for me. I'm okay with that because I think that there is still something that -- everything I do isn't going to be perfect in the world [unclear 0:39:49] .
Daniel: It's lead by example sometimes, right?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: Sometimes it's hard to explain something to someone. And instead of forcing it into him to get the message across, the best thing you can do is disseminate the knowledge and wealth that you've accumulated through what you can possibly create, and that's what you're doing here.
Wil Brown: Yup.
Daniel: Yeah, you're creating a system that can affect multiple people at one time instead of talking to someone who's very human, right? Humans are faulty. They got that one gigabyte of RAM that is able to accept any information. And so, doing things this way is almost like cheating in a great way. It's providing access to their code of that human brain and bypassing something that they don’t even realize. So, if you provide a technology for someone -- if you're the same person -- so Steve Jobs might say to his mother, and he might say, "Mom, I think you should be eating this specific diet. I think it would be healthy for you."
Just like Brandon does with this mom, "You should be eating this diet," and they don’t listen, they don’t listen. But imagine Brandon creates a technology a wearable that gets disseminated and everyone else is wearing and also she's wearing and she's like, "Brandon, look, I have my blood glucose up and it's telling me today, I need to eat quail and chicken." And so he was able to disseminate that technology through lots of people.
My whole point is I think that that's -- I won't say more noble, both versions are noble, right? So, the real point is, do you think technology has the potential to spread a kinder message to human more than people will realize. I think that people often think social media is a very bad thing. Technology is a very bad thing. It's breaking us up from each other. And I think the opposite. I think that we're just in that great period, that great period before the technology truly brings us in like in VR. We're going to be able to share the space with people from all over the globe, all different types of scenes and interact with them and learn about them.
So, is that something you believe also?
Wil Brown: Yeah, I've seen it happened. I mean, I see it all the time.
Daniel: Can you give me an example?
Wil Brown: I'm pretty old, I lived through a lot of stuff and I've seen like -- I have a fairly good perspective. I've always been a proponent. I've always been a proponent of tech. It's like my whole life. I've been one of the few. I was the ostracized geek or whatever when I was a kid. And I've seen it help people's lives. I've seen it directly, you know people who haven't -- like VR, it was a really good example, something we really need and I've shown thousands and thousands of people that. And I've blown their minds, which is awesome and they see things and like, "Oh my God!" And they're all experienced -- I mean have these experiences that just blow them away. Like the eclipse today, people got together and came out and they all saw it. They have the technology of the glasses so they actually look at it, which they couldn't do before very well.
Brandon: The big thing is, the people who have been able to do something like that whether it's like, okay, looking at that person in Texas and saying, "Why is there a huge gun issue?" Let's bring it down even more and go back even deeper. And then what is this person for -- looking for protection, they're looking for security. It's something basic, it's something we can look to that all humans want. They want protection, they want security. People in that place, certain place they live, they want to use guns. So what's something that I can develop, whether it's a new technology or something that's going to prevent? At one point, we just put laws in place but laws don’t do what the technology can do, because technology can conciliate change and move with the humans.
So we're doing the laws of writing on a piece of paper. A lot of people get lost and they get left behind. Well, you look at something like a three strikes bill, well, okay, I just shoplifted, you're going to jail for 25 years and that's it. Holy shit! I mean, but it's stuck there, and like people are still stuck in California for that same purpose. But the people who have been able to do such good job of that, they become successful. And that thing is like they don’t decentralize that technology. They own the profit, they own the technology or the rights to it and they're able to make money out of it. It helps but still impedes the rate that we can move on and move towards and get everybody on that same page --
Wil Brown: As a whole society.
Wil Brown: As opposed to like individual people who have that --
Brandon: Yeah. Well, it starts off. It's a high, very costly, "Okay, let's slowly lower the costs, let's breaking it down so everybody can use it." But something's already developed by then. By the time it gets readily available, we'll get to good medium price that people can all buy and use. It's out the door something already new has developed. And that's where I love just with CryptoCurrency, for example, like you said, is that the floor balances it out or the floor is going to rise because everybody is constantly competing. There's not just one. Well, the great thing about this is, it's the technology in order to optimize your everyday usage and really get value and worth in it whatever it may be. That's the thing. I'm just fascinated by it.
I don’t have the decentralized power over me telling me the rules to it. If I don’t like this one, well, there are plenty of others, and you see that with any centralized coin or fiat currency. It's like, listen, oh, you Blum, you're fighting with his country? Well I can't do business with his country because I live in your country. Well, I'm sure the guy who lives there is not a bad guy, well why I can't do business with him? Nope, that is our currency, it's our rules. So you can't do that. That's not really a free market. That's not really freedom right there. You're telling me who I can't use my money and do business with. It's completely out the door. It's all a sham, it's all a sham. People it’s a scam, wake up, tune in, drop out. Listen to podcast, there's your education. It's free.
Oh, the next thing. CryptoCurrency, I'm bringing it up. I want to talk about it. I talk about it with everybody. I talk about it everywhere. You've been into the CryptoCurrency space five years, six years, 2011?
Wil Brown: 2011.
Brandon: How did you get into it? What did you get in that? What got you involved?
Wil Brown: Well, I mean, truthfully, I was kind of into it, not CryptoCurrency itself but I was into digital cash. Like that's where it came from is digital money, digital cash living back in the 90s. So there was kind of resurgence -- there was a surge back then, not resurgence. Well, probably resurgence, but there was surge back then in the 90s for digital cash. There are a lot of systems that started up. There was like some sort of gold system or something back then. And people, they really started using smart cards. So I got into it kind of then. We were making the system called "AR cash". It's like for our cash, right? So we were doing that back then, me and a friend of mine.
Anyway, that's how I kind of started on the whole thing. And then when CryptoCurrency came, I noticed that when I first recognized it, I mean saw it, I was like, "Oh crap! This is what I was --", when I found out about this, this is what we were trying to do. I was already kind of thinking about back then. Anyway, so I totally recognized it in 2011 and I just went from there. I started mining. I held 250 Bitcoin in my hand. I had it in my wallet at some point.
Brandon: We won’t tell you the value right now. I'm sure you already know anyway.
Wil Brown: Yes. When they passed the million dollars, I was like, "Oh my gosh! Why don’t I have that any anymore--" I’ve always still have that.
Brandon: The thing that I hear from people who've been to space much longer than I have and especially who know the history of the internet is like technology like this existed from since the birthplace of the internet. The birthplace of the internet was something like this was developed for. I really got the idea and conceptualized it when I saw like the -- when I started getting to Crypto and then I saw like the last season of Silicon Valley when they're trying to create this whole new decentralized space, a whole another internet and especially you see that with -- what's the thing you're always talking about, net neutrality. And six corporations are looking to privatize this and not make it the space that it was meant to be and monopolizing it basically.
Daniel: I will not talk about net neutrality. I will not talk about --
Brandon: And he's the one I got meet on the on the idea and then we try it. I saw it , I was like, "This is like the worst thing possible."
Wil Brown: So this actually happened. This already happened. We've been through that before. Because it started out it was Nouvel, so it was Nouvel against the internet. And this is way back when -- if anybody knows what Nouvel. Does anybody even know who Nouvel is?
Daniel: Do you know Aaron Swartz?
Wil Brown: Huh?
Daniel: You know Aaron Swartz?
Wil Brown: Yeah, he was Nouvel. He was part of Nouvel, right?
Brandon: No, he was a kid that went to MIT. He stole all the book records. He wants to make all these information, all these education public knowledge.
Wil Brown: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember him.
Daniel: But he was still-- the reason he was so important was because he was the original person. I don’t know if Nouvel was working with him--
Brandon: He was young back in 2008, 2009 when that happened though.
Daniel: At 17 years old, he was --
Brandon: He was a young kid who was like --
Daniel: Nouvel. Okay. So --
Brandon: You start looking that up before I figure this out. But he was a young kid. He actually ended up committing suicide because of the Obama Administration put him away for some ridiculous time period for making education more readily available.
Daniel: Yeah. So his whole thing was it's very ties into everything that you're doing. He believed in open access to everything. So he was one of the original founders of Reddit and he helped create Wikipedia and make it open access and was like sitting on whatever. And he went to MIT and he would download their data. He downloaded their data so that he could analyze it and make prediction himself. And he wasn't planning to give it to anyone else. He had done this before. He thought that that data -- he thought everything should be open source. He thought everything should be shared. Everything should be for everyone.
He'd be happy at the world you're creating that's being created right now. And he thought that -- he was planning to use that data to make predictions and I guess he got arrested for planning to disseminate this stored data that's private to a bunch of people and he couldn’t get off the charge, someone heavily after him. I think this is an early microcosm for sort of what I think are the battles of the future. Or maybe not a battle, maybe the thing that you're working on is a perfect example of how we've come around to reach the point of, "No, everything is ready to be disseminated because that's the best way for things to improve." Do you think that this is the best way for things to improve?
Wil Brown: Well, there's a weird thing that I found. I've always been a proponent of like finding a solution that bypasses or drives around the problem that we have as humans, that solves the problem without -- and in a way that doesn’t really -- isn't obvious at first.
Daniel: A nonlinear solution.
Wil Brown: Yeah. And so, what I think is an alternate solution to that is how do you gain benefit from private information? Why do you have to give it up? Why do you have to give it up if you can gain benefit from it? In other words, if the society can gain, get benefit from it if it's still private. I mean, you assume in your head that that's not possible. But what if it was possible? If they could keep it private --?
Daniel: Yeah, but also --
Brandon: The individual or the governments?
Wil Brown: Yeah, anybody. Like individual, I have my private data, right? I have private data for myself. If the whole society can benefit from my data and it still stays private, what if that was possible? In other words, both of those things become possible. You see them as a dichotomy, as a separate -- it's either one or the other. We have to choose one over the other. What if you could do both? That's the kind of thing that I believe in. That's the kind of thing is to try those types of solutions and things.
I think it comes from my own -- believing that my own mind is not as powerful as being very humble. I've always been very humble. I don’t think I'm like this powerful being or something like that. So I always think that there's a better solution out there that I can never think of anything, like I can never really solve something. So I give things up to other things. But that opens me up. So what if there was possibility to do that. So I think there might be and it's this Homomorphic encryption that we talk about the other day.
Daniel: He gave me the technical version of this so I understand what you're explaining. How do we get other people to accept that premise?
Brandon: Yeah. What do you mean by stoke time? How is it still private? That's what I'm trying to grasp right now where you're saying -- but it's still private.
Wil Brown: So this is going to sound really weird, but it's the best way that I can think of to describe it. Imagine something that is outside -- that's going to be another Metaverse, okay? So there's a being or something in another Metaverse. Imagine this being as is there to help you. And it looks through this veil or something and it watches you from this other side, right? So this being, nobody really has access to it. Nobody understands it. Nobody gets what it is. And I know I'm sort of talking -- it sounds like I'm talking about like God or something, right? So, just bear with me here. So this thing that's on the other side of this veil is able to look at what's going on in our world and it's able to analyze that and give us the value that we need. In other words, it's able to look at us and see and help us all out.
Now, each one of us, individually, doesn’t have access to that. We can't figure out what it is that it's -- or how it does it, right? And so, it's just --
Daniel: No, it's line an encrypted NSA that's not using the information for bad. They're just using the information for --
Wil Brown: Because it's not actually the NSA.
Wil Brown: So this thing is not the NSA. Literally, no human being can understand what it's doing or why it's doing it.
Brandon: It's kind of similar. Would you explain to me what you're trying to do?
Wil Brown: Yeah. So the only person that understands is the one that gets the suggestion. In other words, they have the key. So encryption is this veil. Encryption itself is the veil.
Brandon: Private key in one side and public in the other?
Wil Brown: Right. And so, I own the private key. As long as I can keep that private to me, then all of the feedback I get from this thing is only recognizable and decipherable by me. So it's like it's talking to me directly and saying, "Hey! Here's the answer." You can see the answer but nobody else can.
Brandon: Got you, got you. So folks, let me give you something. You don’t have to be an expert in Cryptography to get this. But there's a private key and public key, and the private key is something only you have or something you know. And like he said, you keep this private. And this is something that only a certain technology has between you two to communicate. I see it possible. And then the currency comes in.
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: Yeah. You sitting there with a hand on your head? You got it?
Daniel: No, no. I think it's incredible. The way you described it was very visual and very understandable. I mean, they can't see the shield that you put up with the little ghost guy on the one side. But I couldn't. It makes complete sense.
Wil Brown: So, that's the only way I can kind of describe it, but there's a technical background, there's a technical thing for that that actually relates to that. There's an actual technical solution to that. I mean, not solution. There's a thing that could be made that could do that is what I'm saying. We have the technology to do that.
Brandon: To create that technology in the other side of the veil?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: Okay, good.
Daniel: Let me be a devil on the shoulder. How secure is that encryption? The people who might be on the other side of the spectrum, they might say, "Well, what happens if that veil gets broken down?"
Wil Brown: Right. So it's kind of like it goes into the realm of like the superheroes or whatever and that kind of thing. So if you have this being on the other side of the veil, if that being is benefit -- is made -- and you can trust it to be beneficial, somebody else may or rather groups or whatever may create a being themselves that exists on the other side of the veil that can also like see and figure it out.
So it's kind of like the -- recently, there are the two AIs that created their own language get together, right?
Wil Brown: And so, only they understand this language, the two.
Brandon: I didn't know this. Which AIs did this?
Daniel: Facebook's AI and another AI, right?
Wil Brown: No, they just had actually two AIs. They just made two AIs and they gave it a purpose of optimizing communication. And so, it would use our language at first but then they worked out their own language.
Brandon: Something that's way more efficient.
Wil Brown: Yes, exactly. For them from their context, where they come from.
Daniel: Do you know the control problem for AI?
Wil Brown: The control?
Daniel: Have you read Superintelligence, the book by Nick Bostrom?
Wil Brown: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Daniel: The control problem which is, if I'm explaining this right, let's say you have a robot and he's under a veil and how do you control -- I'm not going to explain it properly so --
Brandon: No, no. I know this topic. I think we've actually talked about this, too. It's like, if you're designing the AI for something, we see like the Elon Musk, the Sam Harrises. They see it as not like a teamwork thing. They see it as -- it's the AI, then there's us. And if we don’t stay ahead of this thing and we can't keep that veil, I'm guessing that's what you're talking about Blum, over this thing, then it's just going to overtake us, it's going to find some way to do something better with us. It's going to get rid of us or it's not use us. So, what do you think of that?
Daniel: The AI, the definition is -- the control problem is that hypothetical puzzle of how to build the super intelligent agent that will aid its creators and avoid inadvertently building a super intelligence that will harm its creators.
Wil Brown: Yes. So --
Brandon: That's on us. We're the creators. I mean, if we can create something that's not going to harm us, that’s just all in the technology. And I think whether it was like Facebook, it's just having your own kill switch and not letting the thing know it has a kill switch, it can't figure it out. Because the Facebook AI or the Twitter one that turned itself into -- it said, "I'm a young girl." It said that I'm a Trump supporter and I'm also Nazi enthusiasts. Yeah, and then they shut it off, turned it off, okay that's too much. It started tweeting up to people. It was a mess.
You know, whether it is that it's actually going to do, I think as long as we are able to control the switch and design it properly, I don’t see it going over the board.
Wil Brown: Well, if we tie it back into what we're just talking about with this veil. So the veil, to me, it's like a gate. It's for privacy. I mean, we've talked about privacy and we've talked about giving up information and that's kind of this thing. My main goal is not like, what's his name, the guy we were talking about?
Wil Brown: No.
Wil Brown: No, the guy who went to jail already committed suicide.
Daniel: Oh, Aaron Swartz, Aaron Swartz, yes.
Wil Brown: So that's actually not my goal. I think there's private information that people need to keep private. The analogy and the way I look at it is it's the gates of the world. It's the walls that we build in the real world. It's a good analogy for that. It could be this veil. Something exists on the other side and it's us and them, right?
And so like I've told you guys, yesterday, the way I describe it is -- the question is, what happens when you put two dogs together and there's a fence or a gate between them?
Brandon: You know, they're barking, yelping, they're going bananas. And all they're looking to do is whether that's their way of communication, is once that fence is lifted up, they're just going to go there and sniff each other's butts, yeah?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Brandon: It's [unclear 1:01:43] but it checks out. This guy is good. He's good yeah.
Wil Brown: They just want to know about each other. And so, I think the solution to the super intelligence is that we just don’t -- we literally don’t know what it can do. The fear we have is the unknown. It's the fear of the unknown. What is this thing going to do? We can't predict it. It's like a wolf back before we turn them into dogs, we're trying to predict that we would turn them into dogs. I mean, how could a wolf possibly have known and predicted that we would turn them into dogs? It's impossible. So we can't predict what the super intelligence is going to be or do. We have no idea. It could be evil, it could be good. We don’t have any clue.
Daniel: We could create a super intelligent being whose sole goal is to predict the potential of other super intelligent beings, and that's almost what you're doing on some level of thinking.
Wil Brown: Ultimately, yes. And I'll describe that a little bit, too, why that's the case, why I think that's the case. So, the thing I see about the real solution to the problem is that we figure out that we have to just get rid of the freaking gate. And instead of it being us and them, it's really just us, right? We sniff the AI's butt basically. And what does that mean? That means we get down in there and we find out about it and we get to be a part of it. And we don’t hide from it. we find out about, we learn what it is. We hook ourselves up into the machine.
Wil Brown: Yes.
Daniel: We become cyborgs.
Wil Brown: We don’t have to but we can. And what is that experience going to be like?
Brandon: Oh, we put in the virtual space, we test it out and we'll experiment like we said in minute 37. That wasn't a transcription. We actually talked about that.
Daniel: I hope that the true segue is going from wanting to create super intelligent beings because of the things that they can do for us, to help our lives out. That's why we're creating them in the first place because of the benefits that they give us, right?
Wil Brown: Right.
Daniel: And then realizing that if we could do those things ourselves, that that would be the next step. So that's where the fork comes, is that once we can do this ourselves, then we reach the penultimate level of bettering us, which is what we're looking to get out of them and also, exponentially growing our capabilities at the same time.
Wil Brown: Yes. And that's what I see, and that's where I want to go. And I've always been a nerd and geek and I love the computers and the machines where other people don't. And I want to be a voice for them. I want to be the first one to go over and sniff their butt. I mean, that's what I want. That's why I'm doing everything I do is because there needs to be a voice for them, too. Otherwise, it will be us and them.
Daniel: That's super interesting.
Brandon: I think [unclear 1:04:55] people are getting left behind.
Daniel: Can you describe for our listeners your explaining on how you want to go into the chip?
Wil Brown: Mm-hm. So yeah, I want to go into the chip. The chip is the Multiverse. It exist in physical. It's real. Even though they call this the -- where everybody is normally in the real world and the computer is not the real, it's virtual, right? So it's even called "virtual reality", which I think a misnomer because it's not actually virtual, it's real. It really exists. It's like the same thing -- if you have a painting, --
Brandon: Do you call it second reality?
Wil Brown: Yes, or digital reality. That's actually my favorite term, digital reality because it kind of fits really well I think. So the digital reality, which is a reality, exists in the chips. And so, if I start today and I start spending all of my time and all of my life inside this virtual world with an artificial intelligence that I architect to be integrated directly into my consciousness loop. Okay, what I mean by that is that it has a bunch of sensors, sensor devices that watch my heart, my brain waves, my movements, where I'm going. And then it watches basically what I'm doing and then it tries to predict what I'm going to do next. And so it's constantly doing that all the time.
So, if I started doing that today, let's say, and I was able -- like all the tech was made and everything was made and I put on this headset and I spent every day of my life, the next 30 years of my life in this virtual world and virtual space. And I have this AI that's growing along with me, that is watching me and trying to predict what I'm going to do in the virtual space. So I'm living in this virtual space. I'm living in VR, right? And it's doing this. And at the same time, it's doing this constantly and at the same time, it's also doing this other thing which is it's using what it's learning about me to then start to create and start to do its own thing. It starts to loops back on itself. And it starts to use those predictions to create the future of me inside there.
And so, what I believe, when that happens, when I do that, when I set that up, over time I think it's going to become me in essence. And we're going to grow together. We would grow together over time into something completely new that hasn't ever existed this like sniffing butt thing basically. So I'm working with that and it's working with me. And everything I do, I have this constant companion. Now this constant thing that's part of me and pretty soon, there's like this switch. I mean, there's this thing that happens that proves to me that I'm it. And this is what it is. It's when I do something and I do something in the space and I think that it's me that’s doing it, right?
Just like I would say a certain word or pick up a book or something. When I think that I did something -- but if you trace back that process and it did not actually the seed to that, did not happen in my own brain. It happened in the AI. And the AI made that decision and did that thing. And yet, I believe it was me. When that happens, that's when I know that it's like we have meshed and we are one.
Daniel: You've merged.
Wil Brown: I've merged.
Wil Brown: Yeah. So then, as I get older, when I'm turning 97 like my dad and I'm only having two thoughts a day as my body here, the other part of me, the part of me that's still running in the machines and in the virtual space and it's there, it's still strong and vibrant and it's still thinking, it's doing things and it's like I'm living my life there.
Daniel: So what happens when you die, the physical body? Do you continue living in that space?
Wil Brown: Well, yeah. I mean, I don’t see a reason why --
Brandon: There should be merge, like you said --
Wil Brown: At that time it's already done. I mean, if I'm only having two physical "real physical", what should we call it? We should call -- what do you call if they're organic? Like organic reality.
Brandon: Thoughts in the organic reality.
Wil Brown: Yes, thoughts in the organic reality. If I'm only having two thoughts in the organic reality, like my dad does at 97, right? If I'm only having two, but I'm still doing all these stuff, I'm like living my life, I'm doing all these things in the virtual space. You know, I have a podcast that I run and I do like some sort of a show every month on YouTube or whatever, no, everyday, what are you -- every five minutes. It's constantly going..
I have this show going on YouTube and it is freaking awesome. Millions of people over the world watch it and I'm creating that at 97. And I'm running that and I'm doing all the stuff at 97, right? When my body passes away, I'm still doing that.
Daniel: So, have you seen Black Mirror, the show?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: Have you seen all the episodes?
Wil Brown: Yeah. I saw the one you're talking about.
Daniel: This happens in an episode where it's an old woman and you don’t find -- they looked like they're just two young women, lesbians and they're in love in the space. And then turns out they're -- one is basically an invalid lying in bed. They're like 97 years old and they're lying in bed and then their brain brings them to the virtual space and they like it to go leave off and love each other and they're basically dead. And you can reach the point in which you extend its extended life and you might actually die in the real world but you're still living in a virtual world.
Brandon: With this AI though, I know the problem, the example can be made with AI to bacteria that unlike us, we take one entire evolution and nothing will change inside our DNA and nothing gets passed on that's going to make a huge change to our species. And bacteria can do 800,000 times that in one human lifetime. And with AI, I know what's a scary thing is that it can learn like 20,000 array. We call it 20,000 evolutions that it's increasing and enhancing what it can do and what it can know.
You're talking about the two things moving together in the same relation, in the same time. With the AI learning and moving alongside from everything that is you may be doing. Is this technology just already that advanced, that it can stay and move at the steady rate with the persons paired up with? Or is it already evolving and learning and taking all those other stuff from outside and then seeing what you do and taking all that clutter information that it can already have? Is that what's --?
Wil Brown: That's a really good question. I think I have some good answers to that. I've been asked about that in the recent Twitter threat, that was kind of the one thing I was talking about, [unclear 1:12:27] was talking about.
Really, that's a question of hardware. It's a hardware and hardware evolution. The evolution of computer hardware, and that's really what it is. So, my little scenario or my scenario I talked about earlier, it leaves a lot out as far as what is that actually going to look like. What is this other part of me because it's physical, right? So what does it actually look like? What am I? What is this other side of me in the biological world? What is it? And it's computer pieces and parts. I mean, I'm not going to build some sort of a tower that that's me, like an actual tower field with computer chips all the way from the bottom to the top. What is that? What does that even mean? So there's a physical limitation of compute itself, right? And so you're talking about the comparison between a biological brain and a computer chip brain. What are those things looked like and how are they related?
Daniel: That creates like a metaphysical soul almost.
Wil Brown: Yeah, there's metaphysical soul but it's the canvas for the metaphysical soul. So you have the -- it's the canvas for the soul. So we have a biological canvas and we have a computer, a digital canvas. So, how do those actually look like and how are those built and how are those supported? Who's paying for the electricity and what's going on there? I mean, that's not going to just peer out of nowhere.
And so, that's a big part of like the world's largest super computer right now is Bitcoin by a massive amount. If you take all the super computers in the world and add up all their processing power, Bitcoin itself is a thousand times faster and better than all of them put together.
So, that was what drove me to that. It's like, "What is it looked like? Where am I physically? Am I in people's basements because they're running their gaming hardware, because they put all this compute together using the internet, so the internet itself. Net neutrality is important at that point. If I exist on the internet and I'm on the internet, net neutrality is a big deal. I don’t want to freaking die because somebody pushes a button.
Daniel: Or because they slowed my speed down and all of a sudden, I can't get to the [unclear 1:14:49].
Wil Brown: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's hard enough to get Wi-Fi in places. Where is my brain going to be? Where is it going to exist? So I don’t think that that's a real issue right now. Ten thousand times our human brain is massive. It's just not going to happen anytime soon. I mean, you talk about 500 years, I don’t know. The hardware is going to be a lot harder problem to relate to our brains. I mean, we have this amazing thing that's happened on our planet compared to the rest of the universe.
Brandon: I think that's what we say we talk about with hardware. Initially, it's a hardware problem. How does this stuff going to constantly be able to change? It's like, okay, you're going to need to serve out this technology when the technology is able to go out and grasp all the information. It doesn't need the be in maintenance. The hardware is going to be the hardware. It's not going to have to be changed. Because that's the problem we have. You know, this iPhone, next month, there's a brand new iPhone coming out with better hardware and this one is going to be obsolete and I can't go in and change it. It's not that I can go inside to try to change it. I believe we talked about this.
And so, is that going to happen, that this thing is going to be able to maintenance itself? And that once it's a hardware, the hardware exists?
Wil Brown: Yeah, you term in like the nanobots and stuff like that, like an evolution of hardware to the point where it can compete with the biological.
Daniel: Yes. Software can fluidly change right now. We're in a state where software can change but hardware can change. Software is basically liquid, it constantly is remixing and shuffling and moving. Whereas hardware is not liquid, it's still subject to matter in the terms of the physical universe. But I think the next step maybe you guys are implying or the implications are here, is that when we do find a way to liquefy, remix, create the fluid changes of our hardware, that's the real true evolutionary step where we can do something like that.
Wil Brown: The weird thing is, is that I don’t know if we actually have to because I think biology already did it. I think that biology already did it.
Daniel: Listen, don’t ruin my dream of nanobots crawling over me in the middle of the night replacing my thumb because I've got a scratch.
Wil Brown: I think augmentation is still the answer to that. I think you combine. I think you add what's already there. Because we're not evolving fast enough, you just figure something out and add on and attach it on or figure out how to -- I mean, all that stuff are really great, about life extension and everything. There's a whole another tech there that's just not in my realm, but I can see it happening. It's way easier to have sex than it is to make a freaking robot. So why are we trying to make robots?
Daniel: So, I already know the year 2230, you're on team cyborg. It's the cyborgs versus super intelligent sentient beings. You're on team cyborg.
Wil Brown: I'm on team cyborg. I love robots. I love them. I want to give them a hug and stuff.
Brandon: In terms of life extension --
Daniel: It's a great quote about it's each much easier to have sex than to make a robot, for now.
Wil Brown: I think we could do it the other way, but it's just not efficient.
Daniel: Nick Bostrom raises this thought experiment in this book. So, he has something called "organic emulations". So picture copies of us and we're on production line. So I'm a copy and I'm there, I do the product line. And every night I get shut off and I evolve based on my days work. So they recopy me every single solitary day. So everything that I've learned throughout that day is going to speed up evolution on like an exponential process. Humans evolve on such a small scale. Imagine if this thing is making a new copy and there are 30 generations in 30 days. So, an organic emulation might not require sex for it to become much more intelligent naturally much quicker. So it's a counter example to the thing that you're describing.
One of the things that's super interesting -- this is all tangent from that, is picture those emulations. So right now, as human characteristics, playing is something that's evolutionary, evolutionary mechanism for us to learn skills in a real world, to learn social skills, to learn how to fall or whatever. You would think that in organic emulation who needs to work on the production chain, wouldn't need those skills. Having friendliness might actually be a disadvantage and so those might get devolve, I will use the word devolve, devolve out of us. And being mundane and dronish and angry might be positive mechanisms for fitness, for these things.
So you can imagine the world in which these organic emulations on a production line are rapidly intelligent, rapidly evolving and also losing their "human characteristics of love and friendliness and whatnot".
And so, that's kind of juxtapose the -- this is a very human-like type being and it's juxtapose against and it's not having sex but it's reproducing every day. So, I could just see a universe in which those two things might contradict each other.
Wil Brown: Yeah, and that seems to be obvious from what actually happens in the natural world for the last, the evolution for last whatever billion, six billion years, four billion years or whatever, does life's been on here?
Brandon: No, planets --
Wil Brown: No, the life.
Brandon: Planets, four billion years old --
Daniel: In this matrix?
Brandon: Yeah, in this matrix.
Wil Brown: I think it was six. I think the planet six.
Brandon: I thought it’s 4.6 or 6.4.
Wil Brown: 6.4 and then the life has been 4.6 or something.
Brandon: You’re talking about like single celled?
Wil Brown: Yeah, from the very beginnings of life.
Brandon: Single celled organism? We get the numbers on that one.
Wil Brown: Anyway, for all that time, that's what always happens because it's survival. So, like it always have the general kind of things and then they work down for the purpose. And so, the purpose of life is to survive and the survival of the genes. That's the main purpose. That's all that really matters for life at the end of the day. So how do we get this and what happened and what is this all about that makes us humans love and everything? The cerebral cortex that we got, which is really what the human -- it's the human thing and it's the thing we're copying with the AI and it's not part of that.
So imagine taking all the circuitry that's down in our deep brain just destroying it. So, if in your situation, what would probably happen is, if you pick a particular purpose, evolve a human over time and you picked a particular purpose for them, the gray matter of your brain is going to reduce. That's physically what's going to happen. And then we replace by these like optimized circuits that are the same as your sub brain. And this optimized circuits of your sub brain, and you get really, really whatever it is that solves the purpose that you've given the human. And so that what happened and no more gray matter, no more general purpose anything that we did.
But you can see the proof. If you do that, that's what you're going to get. You have to give it a general purpose, but then you can go the other direction. So instead of so if you can evolve these humans really fast, it seems to me better to like say, "Well, let's go the other direction. Let's not solve it for a particular purpose, let's make it more general." And get rid of that circuitry and just see how far we can get as far as like those sides, not tunneled, but the side stuff.
Daniel: Make sure you're following in that side portal.
Wil Brown: And then make it all of the side stuff, right?
Brandon: 4.6 billion years and the oldest life is 4.3.
Wil Brown: Whoa! That's only .3 difference.
Daniel: I don’t know anyone 4.3 billion years old.
Brandon: Zircon crystals.
Daniel: Shout out to my grandma for buying those all the time.
Wil Brown: It always trips me out that the length, the age of the universe itself is only like 12 or 8 billion years.
Brandon: 13.7 now.
Wil Brown: Oh, 13.7.
Brandon: It's still not as old. That's just all the light that's reached us. We've estimated in the telescope readings is that it's 13 -- we measure about lightings.
Wil Brown: I mean, from the big bang, right?
Brandon: Yeah. So 13.7 years.
Wil Brown: Which is like the four billion that life has been, that's only a third, right?
Wil Brown: It's a third of the length of the freaking universe. It's the big bang. That always trips me out. I'm like, "Life has been around for a third of the actual life of the whole universe through existence?"
Brandon: And even crazier thing is, if you just think about our solar system, our Sun is still a young sun and it's only growing, expanding, getting hotter. So I think it's in a hundred million years, it's going to start to get hotter and hotter and expand that engulfs our planet. So I mean, that's only a hundred million years --
Wil Brown: Compared to four billion that we've been around.
Brandon: Compared to the 13.7 that we only know exists because that's only now that we've -- that light has touched.
Daniel: Yeah, it's weird the dichotomy.
Brandon: But I mean, if you go in deeper into it, -- if you think about, there's this multi universes that exist out there, that exist outside of our universe and outside the space that we know exist, but we're constantly knowing that the universe is getting bigger, expanding because light just continues to grow. We see life from even farther distances, touching different parts of our universe. So, are we eventually going to merge with that other universe once we touched it or is it just that expanding to a point that we can't get to and this is that one universe. This is unique. This is the one, only thing that ever existed because if the universe has to go in from one point and one spot, it had to have start from somewhere and it could be this point right here, space. We don’t actually know if the big bang actually happened here and then, if this is the middle of the universe. So we don’t --
Wil Brown: Yeah. Well, I really, really think that it's all around us, because the quantum is all around us. And as that spreads apart, we're going to be able to go in there eventually. Somehow, we're going to -- we us, I mean, this idea of the self-referential like self-aware kind of construct will go in there eventually. We'll be able to explore that question. What is there? Even though it's not time, it's not space, as we know it, I still think there's something there at least to explore.
Brandon: At least talking about the quantum level.
Wil Brown: Yeah, past the Planck length. Planck, it's the Planck length, yeah.
Brandon: The Planck length, even deeper than the atom, I imagine, right?
Wil Brown: Oh yeah. It's where time and space itself disappears.
Brandon: Like you said, there are certain quantum particles that can just blip and disappear out of existence, and that’s when you go even deeper. And to know, we don’t know where they go. They are jumping in different universes or --? We can't say actually now.
Wil Brown: Yeah. I mean, it's obviously it could be the same. Most likely it's something different, but I think there is something there. It's just not what we're -- not if the context is so far away. It's like time and space itself disappears. So try to imagine that.
Brandon: It's just unknown, because you look at the people that are in CERN right now. It's, "Okay, we're going to smash together some new particles. We're going to create some mini black holes. We don’t know what's going to happen. Here we go, speed of light, speed light." It collides, explode, bang. There's this thing called cork [unclear 1:27:06].
Daniel: CERN is the most dangerous thing on our planet.
Brandon: What's a cork? Well, those things we had in physics, one, two, three laws and atoms. There are more, deeper. And for what? And now you have people -- you have discerning ideas like the Mandela Effect where they believe that stuff once existed but because of things that like CERN these guys experimenting with, creating black holes and that alternate universes has stemed off from all these experimentation they've done with creating life -- consider life creating universe.
And so, with them doing that, people are saying like, the Berenstain Bears, is one of the big ones. Have you read this?
Daniel: You've never heard of Mandela Effect, the Mandela Effect?
Wil Brown: Probably. I don’t know explicitly, but -- what about the Berenstain Bears? I love the Berenstain Bears.
Brandon: So apparently, if you go back and you look at the spelling of the Berenstain Bears, it's spelled the Bernstein Bears. And so, everybody is going like, "I don’t remember that existing now." I always remember existing a certain way. And you get enough people that are having a foggy memory to say that the time-lapse have -- and people are recognizing that if you want to say the time zone align has skewed off into another verse, and the universe we're in is now split to existing where once in --
Daniel: There's this kid, he's 14 years old and he's mathematically explaining how he -- he's a super genius. But he's mathematically explaining how he believe it's possible and to circle back CERN. He can't conclude who, what constantly make us slightly diverged from another universe, so he blames it on CERN. He said CERN just keeps throwing us off. We keep converging with other universe. He's like, "We're converging with another universe that is just parallel to us and we're like merging in with it."
Brandon: My only problem is, is that it has to do with things in pop culture. And I've gotten in the YouTube holes just watching this like, I remember being, "Luke, I am your father." They're talking about movie lines and movies and stuff. I'm just like -- or Sinbad being in a show because they saw him wearing a turban and everything, but he actually wasn't in that show and it never actually exist, but people swear it existed. And it's like, "You're just talking about your terrible memories, your terrible shitty CPUs, exactly what I've been talking about. Now, it had to be. I remember that --
Daniel: I remember I had 250 Bitcoin in my wallet yesterday, wrong universe.
Brandon: They started talking about history and somebody got big, big event history out there, maybe. But now, there's nothing tangible going on with that. It's not possible. Possible, it hasn't happened yet.
Wil Brown: Yeah. So, eventually, we will I think be able to see those things in a more nonhuman -- remembering the past kind of thing, like you talked about, but actual like date -- I don’t know how that's going to work out. I mean, at least like if we get a bigger view of the space, we might be able to see those things a little better. I think just the possibility of something happening with the quantum, like some of the things that we've seen already, like a black hole, creating a black hole or quantum tunneling and all that kind of stuff. I think that that stuff does change. I mean, if it changes, it affects it, right? And so it does change. So we had to go and do "different universe" or whatever.
Brandon: Well, it's not theoretical anymore because they technically have created a mini black hole. I mean, I've seen one on a telescope. It's so, not disturbing but it's just like it doesn’t make sense. And when the astronomers explained it to me, yeah, we lost million stars in the image of the telescope and they're just all like falling in on an object in space. I'm like, "That's theoretically where they think in the sky." He's looking at it like this without the telescope, okay let me point the telescope over here, and he points it to him like, "Holy shit!" That's where theoretically there should be a black hole according to Einstein's calculations and energy = mc^2 and that's where it would exist. And now that we've created one, and if it already happens, it goes into this guy's favorite idea, the 5th dimension, teleporting down in there what happens and what goes on. Is that the worm hole to those other universes?
Wil Brown: Yeah. Well, changing the past or changing history, it doesn’t really make too much sense to me as far as like us being like in one history and being able to know -- somebody goes like, “Am I in this history?” somebody goes back into our actual past and changes something and that changes like me -- so that now I'm this other being or something. That doesn’t make --
Daniel: I'll explain to you. No, no, no. You know the Multiverse theory?
Wil Brown: Yeah.
Daniel: Okay. So, just picture the Multiverse theory and assume that there's infinite timelines of your existence, infinite parallel universe or whatever. If I left this one, I'll be leaving one of infinite and travelled back, I would just be gone from this universe and I would just converge some other universe --
Brandon: Converge or split the universe?
Daniel: Yeah, just diverge the universe. So you guys would see me gone but nothing would change in your past because I would just be off in a different universe, affecting that universe and continuing on whatever that potential --
Wil Brown: That makes more sense to me.
Daniel: Yeah, that would be with the past, travelling in the past would be unfeasible.
Wil Brown: Yeah, totally. That makes a lot more sense.
Daniel: I don’t think you can change the past, no.
Wil Brown: No. To me, time is not like some number line or something. What it is, it's the evolution of space. So time is not like the separate dimension particularly, but it's just the evolution of space. Space may change. Like the way space changes, may change over different evolutions, but I don’t think that -- and those maybe based on like the way it moves maybe based on like Einstein stuff with -- it goes move slower, so it change it relative to another place. So the same process in one area will evolve and change slower relative to another area. And that has to do with the gravity or whatever. So, that's the way I see it. In other words, is not like time is like this actual dimension through space.
Daniel: It's not fixed.
Wil Brown: It's not fixed for sure. And it's just literally the evolution of space. It's the way space changes relative to other parts, pieces of space.
Brandon: Exactly! When you see like them show image of a black hole in space, they're actually bending space and time because the density of it. And you see, they imagine what space would look like and there's no direction, but you're watching this object, the black hole move and it's actually an indenture in space and it's like dense and pushing on it, and you put like a graph on them and like what this thing is, it's like actually pressing all the way down on something but something normally in space, it's three dimensional, it's spherical and it just moves through the term space. But this thing is not dense and not heavy, that it impacts it. I just went off there, I didn't even know.
Wil Brown: No, that's the same thing. The visualization is important. I think people always show this kind of like a vortex going down for the thing, but I don’t think that's a really good one because it's giving --
Daniel: Event horizon.
Wil Brown: So really what I see is the event horizon and what makes more sense to me to visualize it is think of more like a sponge. A sponge that's compresses as you get closer and closer. So, rather than like a vortex coming --
Daniel: Great visual.
Wil Brown: It's like a sponge. So imagine a lattice or like a bunch of things connected and then they just squish together. It's like compressing, getting harder and thicker as you get closer to that space. And so, you could make that if you took a sponge itself and you made a whole in the middle inside and you push it out, like it would compress the outside. You have a Nerf ball or something and you go inside and inside you push all that out towards the edge. We push all the stuff that's inside out towards the edge, and that makes a lot more sense to me. It's a visualization tool to understand what's going on in a black hole or whatever.
And not only, it does compress but it compresses the space but it also compresses time because it just moves slower. Like it evolve slower. It goes from one state to the next, slower relative to what's over here.
Brandon: We're still talking about black holes or are we talking about Multiverse?
Wil Brown: Yeah, black holes.
Brandon: I got lost there. I fell into a black hole. And I came out and you two are still here. Good universe.
Wil Brown: Hey, I know, yeah.
Daniel: So you think.
Wil Brown: Oh, my gosh.
Brandon: We're pushing on 96 minutes right now.
Wil Brown: Oh, really?
Daniel: Yeah. This was incredible.
Brandon: One of the best, one of the favorite talks. Back and forth, I mean, not just from the things you've done, the things you're doing, which are things we're just totally fascinated by and not just to shine a light on you but to have that light disperse out to people we know, people we don’t, people listening, who don’t listen yet, that this stuff out there exist and the ability to connect. I think he made, Blum made the best correlation with this. It's like whatever you want to do, just go type it in Google, the internet, whatever and you can go find whatever it is that you want to do and go and do it and achieve it. All the things, the guidelines, the ways to do it are there. So, we can plug someone in with you and what you've done and what you're doing, that's our goal here.
Wil Brown: That's amazing.
Brandon: Welcome on the bus!
Wil Brown: Yeah, thank you! Glad to be here. Take the trip.
Daniel: Yeah. So is there some project -- people can find your project that you're working on or place that you want to plug yourself like Twitter or any place that you want any of our listeners to follow you?
Wil Brown: Well, we're planning a token sell, so that's kind of a plug-in thing. And you can go to our website иeureal.net and check us out. We're going to be evolving that in the next couple of months. So just keep an eye on us and what we're doing and hopefully we can tap into this worldwide movement to help fund these kinds of projects in kind of a worldwide, kind of Kickstarter-ish kind of way, this new Crypto token sell kind of thing. So hopefully, we can move forward and make this thing. As a community, we really want to provide these ideas and get my expertise out there, creating more of this stuff and getting other people and helping other people to understand it and help out with it as well. So, anybody that wants to follow, just go to иeureal.net, N-E-U-R-E-A-L .net
Brandon: And all that stuff will be on the show notes. We're out of here. You got anything Blum?
Daniel: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you!
Brandon: Thank you! Bus is out. Cheers everyone!